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   Discussion re: Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
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Stegfucius
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Discussion re: Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« on: Sep 13th, 2012, 6:23am »
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Okay, fellas, this is the thread on which we will conduct our talks throughout the season regarding the lineup submissions situation in relation to the new NFL reality of weekly Thursday night games.
 
First things first, Travis and I talked for quite a while after the draft; "logicked" things out, and, indeed, as I suspected, the "bottommost rule" would take care of the vulnerability we were discussing.  Going with the "bottommost rule" for both lineups and free-agent requests would be the smoothest transition (aside from DR. Dannybucks Feder's being able to handle it).
 
That still leaves the complication regarding trades.  Would we allow trades to be made between the kickoff of Thursday night's game and kickoff Sunday that would count for that week?  I do think there is a way to do that, rather straightforwardly indeed, but it is going to take some thought (which I have yet to devote to the matter).
 
...
 
Okay, as for the experience I had with my Week 1 lineup submission in relation to the Wednesday night game...
 
Player at issue: Marshawn Lynch (back spasms).
 
What I did before Wednesday's game: I put him in my starting lineup.
 
What I would have done before Sunday's games: I would have put him in my starting lineup.
 
Conclusion to this situation: An extra lineup submission prior to Sunday's games would have made no difference.
 
...
 
Next...
 
(Let's have a mature discussion here and do a good job of presenting our respective thoughts and cases in an organized, easy-to-consult manner...)
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #1 on: Sep 13th, 2012, 9:16am »
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I see where the issues arise and am for a change. I had the same issue with foster and his knee. I'm open to suggestions
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #2 on: Sep 13th, 2012, 11:28am »
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on Sep 13th, 2012, 9:16am, IbdFunk wrote:
I see where the issues arise and am for a change. I had the same issue with foster and his knee. I'm open to suggestions

 
The cascading line up addressed this issue for you as well.  Foster played and had a good game.  If he would not have played, you would of gone to the next player.
 
Would your line up have been ANY different had you submitted it on Saturday night or Sunday morning?    
 
 
 
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #3 on: Sep 13th, 2012, 11:58am »
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In regards to the 2 line up submissions, I will admit that at first I was psyched about it. I thought it was a good idea. But then, I started thinking it through.... and now I am against it.   The complications, logistics, what ifs, and ultimately, the value the CURRENT system brings changed my mind.
 
We have had this same scenario the past two years for about 16 weeks total now. I do not think the league was any worse off for having early line ups. If anything, I would say it almost makes it MORE challenging - and our cascading lineups has ALWAYS addressed the issue! It actually takes what the existing format is and makes it all the more important.  
 
You can say OTHER leagues allow 'this' or allow 'that', but this is NOT any OTHER league. This is the GBRFL! NO other league allows playoffs and the probowl to be cascaded in week 17 line ups, no other league has as deep as rosters as we do. No other league has the scoring we do. No other league has 3 running backs from the Green Bay Packers on their rosters.
 
So the more I think the 2 line ups through, the more I am against it. It takes the existing format that makes this league DIFFERENT with the cascading line ups and makes it all the more important.
 
When it comes to free agents....I think it makes the stratrgy all the more important too. It is going to take a LITTLE more thought, but not that much. For example, if the Packers game was Sunday, would you go after James Jones because Jennings seems to be doubtful? Or do you go after a guy who maybe has emerged as a #2 WR? Do you target Hasselbeck because Locker was injured (but SEEMS like he is going to play) - or go after a RB who had a decent week.
 
 
What is REALLY going to be different if we allow two seperate line ups? Are many changes going to be made?
 
So in conclusion, I strongly recommend we do not mess with what I deem an incredible and well thought out system. We have proven over the last two years that the system works for Thursday games. And - it really does make what has been a great cascading system that is unique to this league - into an incredibly great system that makes this unique league all the more special!
 
 
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2012, 12:54pm by DirkDiggler » Logged

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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #4 on: Sep 13th, 2012, 4:01pm »
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I am open to hearing things out, BUT I myself could NOT have stated the case for the position of leaving things as is better than this...
 
on Sep 13th, 2012, 11:58am, DirkDiggler wrote:
In regards to the 2 line up submissions, I will admit that at first I was psyched about it. I thought it was a good idea. But then, I started thinking it through.... and now I am against it. The complications, logistics, what ifs, and ultimately, the value the CURRENT system brings changed my mind.
 
We have had this same scenario the past two years for about 16 weeks total now. I do not think the league was any worse off for having early line ups. If anything, I would say it almost makes it MORE challenging - and our cascading lineups has ALWAYS addressed the issue! It actually takes what the existing format is and makes it all the more important.  
 
You can say OTHER leagues allow 'this' or allow 'that', but this is NOT any OTHER league. This is the GBRFL! NO other league allows playoffs and the probowl to be cascaded in week 17 line ups, no other league has as deep as rosters as we do. No other league has the scoring we do. No other league has 3 running backs from the Green Bay Packers on their rosters.
 
 
GREAT paragraph, and GREAT last line...
 
Quote:
So the more I think the 2 line ups through, the more I am against it. It takes the existing format that makes this league DIFFERENT with the cascading line ups and makes it all the more important.
 
When it comes to free agents....I think it makes the stratrgy all the more important too. It is going to take a LITTLE more thought, but not that much. For example, if the Packers game was Sunday, would you go after James Jones because Jennings seems to be doubtful? Or do you go after a guy who maybe has emerged as a #2 WR? Do you target Hasselbeck because Locker was injured (but SEEMS like he is going to play) - or go after a RB who had a decent week.
 
 
What is REALLY going to be different if we allow two seperate line ups? Are many changes going to be made?
 
So in conclusion, I strongly recommend we do not mess with what I deem an incredible and well thought out system. We have proven over the last two years that the system works for Thursday games. And - it really does make what has been a great cascading system that is unique to this league - into an incredibly great system that makes this unique league all the more special!

 
I do not yet know where I stand, but Steve has made a strong case here for his position and has made me think!
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #5 on: Sep 14th, 2012, 7:37pm »
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As great as our league may be, there is always room for improvement and the fact that we cannot make changes to Sunday's games after Thursday is somewhat of a disadvantage.  I still think there are several loopholes that must be addressed before we implement anything.  It is good that we will have this year to think about the possibilities.
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #6 on: Sep 14th, 2012, 9:00pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2012, 7:37pm, DB wrote:
As great as our league may be, there is always room for improvement and the fact that we cannot make changes to Sunday's games after Thursday is somewhat of a disadvantage.

 
(On the one hand) I would add to that, "... that everyone has to deal with."  Also, it may be that we already have an innovative solution in place, "cascading lineups".  I mean, as Steve is suggesting and my experience running the stats seems to suggest, while it may seem like a big deal at the moment that you cannot change your lineup between Thursday and Sunday, more often than not it does not ultimately make (much of) a difference because of our lineups cascading.
 
Quote:
I still think there are several loopholes that must be addressed before we implement anything. It is good that we will have this year to think about the possibilities.

 
(On the other hand) I do not think there are several loopholes.  The "bottommost rule" really does seal them up.  Now, the comprehension and proper application of the "bottommost rule" by "ALL" our participants (eh-hem, Dr. Dan) is where the problem lies (not that it will be difficult for the rest of us).  That said, midweek trades (trades made between Thursday and Sunday that count for that week) pose potential complications, but none that I think cannot be worked through as long as it is understood that such trades come with inherent limitations.
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #7 on: Sep 15th, 2012, 6:25am »
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Ok, so the "bottommost rule" means that I cannot change my lineup at or above my Thursday night guy.
 
For example my running backs this week may have been AP, McCoy, Forte, Jackson. Forte played Thursday and got hurt, but I cannot change my lineup at or above Forte. I cannot insert Jackson now as my #2 and McCoy down to my #3 to get Forte out of the picture?
 
Similarly, if I had the lineup as AP, McCoy, Jackson and Forte and Forte had a good game, I would not be able to move Forte up. In fact, because of the rule, would it be correct to say that I could not move AP and McCoy either in or out under either lineup scenario. They are basically locked in.
 
So, theorettically, the Thursday guy could be listed first, so that maximum lineup changes could be made. For example, if my lineup was Forte, AP, McCoy, Jackson. If I learned on Friday that AP was questionable or limited or something, I could flip Jackson and AP.
« Last Edit: Sep 15th, 2012, 6:31am by DB » Logged
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #8 on: Sep 15th, 2012, 5:14pm »
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Please peruse this thoughtfully and consider responding... because we already know at least one participant will not be able to process it and, thus, respond intelligently...
 
on Sep 15th, 2012, 6:25am, DB wrote:
Ok, so the "bottommost rule" means that I cannot change my lineup at or above my Thursday night guy.
 
For example my running backs this week may have been AP, McCoy, Forte, Jackson. Forte played Thursday and got hurt, but I cannot change my lineup at or above Forte. I cannot insert Jackson now as my #2 and McCoy down to my #3 to get Forte out of the picture?
 
Similarly, if I had the lineup as AP, McCoy, Jackson and Forte and Forte had a good game, I would not be able to move Forte up. In fact, because of the rule, would it be correct to say that I could not move AP and McCoy either in or out under either lineup scenario. They are basically locked in.
 
So, theorettically, the Thursday guy could be listed first, so that maximum lineup changes could be made. For example, if my lineup was Forte, AP, McCoy, Jackson. If I learned on Friday that AP was questionable or limited or something, I could flip Jackson and AP.

 
First, a couple metacomments,... what an awesome read that post was, succinct (much more so than I usually am), and, furthermore, what a largely enjoyable discussion so far,... between posts like D's here and Steve's earlier, and, mind you, they are representing opposite sides of the issue! The organization, the well-thought-out presentations are enjoyable to sit back and peruse. (That said, Danny -- feeble.)
 
Okay, so, back to the point... Yes, you are right... What the "bottommost rule" prevents is the shifting in and out of players above your Thursday night guy(s) between Thursday and Sunday, which precludes the possibility of listing your Thursday night guy(s) as, say, #4's and then manipulating things by inserting players you know will be out above your (#4) Thursday night guy such that you in essence give yourself the "option" after Thursday to have that guy in or out of your lineup (after having seen his performance on Thursday night). So, again, yes, there would be incentive to list your Thursday night guys as high in the pecking order as possible. Free-agency would work the same way.
 
With that said, there is a price we have to pay for the "bottommost rule". Acquiring via free-agency or carrying "fringe" guys who are playing on Thursday night, but who you do not want to field in your starting lineup and, thus, want to list low on your lineup card, becomes a limitation. Either you are going to have to accept a largely locked-in lineup (if you are listing a Thursday night "fringe" guy, say, #6 in the pecking order) OR you are going to want to consider cutting (or not requesting) the player (via free-agency). To me, this does not seem like a big deal. It adds another level of strategy to our game that is not, however, unfair or manipulative of the system to an advantage.
 
With ALL that said, though, what this (the "bottommost rule") does NOT address -- and, indeed, nothing can -- is the age-old concern that I have harped on down through the years of, once there are stats on the table, one's opponent can strategize accordingly. In other words, heading into the week I think you have good receivers but not as good running backs, so I am thinking out of the running back hole I am going to go with a receiving running back like Sproles (who, for argument's sake here, does not play on Thursday). But, you have a receiver or two playing on Thursday night, neither of whom has a good game. I am now able to rethink things and decide to pull Sproles and go with more of a rushing attack at running back. This factor, which virtually all fantasy leagues turn a blind eye toward, bugs me incredibly. Even though it seems to be not too big of a deal (I think it is bigger than people realize, though), it seems to me to be unfair and manipulative to advantage,... and there ain't no way out of it. Once you allow for lineup changes after any games have been played, you have invited in this specter.
 
But, anyway, let's keep at it...
« Last Edit: Sep 15th, 2012, 6:45pm by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #9 on: Sep 20th, 2012, 5:09pm »
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Just logging my Week 2 experience as is relevant to this discussion...
 
Player at issue: NONE.
 
What I did before Thursday's game: N/A.
 
What I would have done before Sunday's games: N/A.
 
Conclusion to this situation: An extra lineup submission prior to Sunday's games would have made no difference.
 
Indeed, it would have had absolutely NO bearing on me.
« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2012, 5:10pm by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #10 on: Sep 21st, 2012, 10:32am »
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My week 2 line up would not have changed at all.
 
The only player I had in question was Jennings - who did not play in the Thursday night game.   I cascaded to the next player who I strategically picked up knowing Jennings was questionable.  (granted - he sucked)
 
So in conclusion, NOTHING would of been different.
 
I played Joe - he MIGHT have entered a different line up because of Ryan Matthews- however, if he would of taken 2 seconds to enter a cascading line up it would not of impacted him because Ryam Matthews was CLEARLY questionable heading into the weekend.  
 
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #11 on: Sep 23rd, 2012, 12:11pm »
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I don't believe anyone will see any drastic issues until you get a player that is questionable on thursday AND has an issue that will allow him to play with the injury but probably  will not be as effective as usual.  
 
There's nothing worse that putting in a receiver who has a foot sprain and ends up leaving the game after one catch in the 1st. In this case, the cascading is meaningless.
 
So, if you put him in your lineup on Thursday because he was questionable, but on Sunday morning you hear that he will play, but "will be limited" or "looks like he's limping" in warm ups, it would be nice to be able to pull him out and move another player ahead of him in your lineup.  
 
That's a lot of ifs but it would be beneficial to have the option. Now, we must weigh that against the work that would need to go into it to make it work. Is it worth it for that scenario?
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #12 on: Sep 23rd, 2012, 1:52pm »
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I basically agree with Frank's post, and the picture he paints does not just stand for receivers, mind you.  What I would point out in reply, however, is that to answer his final question in an informed manner the week-in-and-week-out documentation of our lineup-submission experiences is key to the equation of figuring out if it really is worth it.  It tells us how needed the change is by telling us how often it would actually matter.  Before making any decisions we want to make sure that we are not bending over backwards for something that is truly exceptional, and the only way we are going to be able to have an idea about that is from those who document their experiences throughout the season. Unless it is going to involve a technical upgrade (which I do not see myself having a sufficient amount of time to do until my dissertation is done, at least), the decision itself does not really need to be made until next August.  Patience (and information-gathering) is (are) the virtue(s) here.
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #13 on: Sep 28th, 2012, 7:03am »
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Logging my Week 3 experience as is relevant to this discussion...
 
Player at issue: Kevin Smith (demotion).
 
What I did before Thursday's game: Put him in one of my two lineups as a starter, #3, and the immediate backup, #4, in my other.  
 
What I would have done before Sunday's games: I might have pulled him out of the starting lineup in the one game.
 
Conclusion to this situation: A bit of an exceptional situation, I must admit, he did not receive any touches. As such, an extra lineup submission prior to Sunday's games would have made no difference. But, given that we are talking a running back here, this was about as close of a call as could happen. Bottom line, though, ultimately, unbelievably, no difference!
 


Player at issue: Brandon Lloyd (injury).
 
What I did before Thursday's game: Put him in one of my two lineups as a starter, #3, and the immediate backup, #4, in my other.  
 
What I would have done before Sunday's games: I would have put him in one of my two lineups as a starter, #3, and the immediate backup, #4, in my other.
 
Conclusion to this situation: An extra lineup submission prior to Sunday's games would have made no difference.
 
So, so far, I am 0-for-3 in weeks, 0-for-4 in situations with respect to the need for an extra, second lineup submission.
« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2012, 7:12am by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #14 on: Oct 7th, 2012, 6:42am »
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Just documenting my Week 4 experience as is relevant to this discussion...
 
Player(s) at issue: NONE really, but I suppose I could say McFadden (supposed injury) and Bowe (supposed injury).
 
What I did before Thursday's game: Played 'em.
 
What I would have done before Sunday's games: Played 'em.
 
Conclusion to this situation: An extra lineup submission prior to Sunday's games would have made no difference.
 
There were those couple of seemingly close calls (McFadden, Bowe), which ultimately turned out to be red herrings.  The ability to submit a lineup after Thursday would have, indeed, prompted nothing but unnecessary worry and wasted motion.
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Re: Discussion Lineup Submissions & Thursday Games
« Reply #15 on: Oct 7th, 2012, 12:49pm »
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My week 4 experience with the line up is one which COULD of been different, but I doubt it would of been.   My experience is because I was not following 2 pieces of news....  Reggie Bush played and I thought he was going to be out.   Matt Forte came back and I thought he was going to be out a few more weeks.  
 
The situation could of been different IF I had started Reggie Bush even though he was out.    
 
But honestly, since I was at soccer and baseball all day Sunday, I DOUBT it would of changed anyway.   So bottom line is it might of changed my line up for 2 RBs...but realistically it would not of.  To take it a step further, if I would of started Reggie instead of Michael, it would of been totally irrellavant.  DOH!
 
(thank goodness for the 49ers! - as they carried the day)
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