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   The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
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   Author  Topic: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)  (Read 3851 times)
Stegfucius
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The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« on: Jul 23rd, 2003, 10:50pm »
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That's what they should change their nickname to.  It would not offend anybody, I don't think , and would actually be more "literally" consistent with the term, "Redskin".  In any event, as discussing the "political incorrectness" of the team name the Redskins is mentioned right in the board description for "the Sidelines", I felt compelled to start an actual discussion on it!
 
So, here's the read at the top of "The REAL Feed":
 
Redskins, American Indians continue fight over name!
 
Here's the whole article:
 
http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2003/0723/1584779.html.
 
Again, I'm tired of this BS.  Everything needs to be considered in its contemporary context.  Just like the name the Redskins was not "un-PC" back when it was created as the idea of "political correctness" had not manifested yet, the name, in today's day and age, really does not carry with it that derogatory implication as it once might have.  If anything, the warrior spirit of the indians is what is being celebrated here at this point in time.  Bottom line, you never here the Irish complaining about the Notre Dame "Fighting" Irish, which actually carries with it, even today, a somewhat slightly pejorative connotation.  What about the University of Illinois Fighting Illini?  You NEVER hear a problem with that one.  The Illini are an indian tribe.  I guess the term "'red'skin" does more so lack sensitivity, but ... there's worse goin' on.  I would just be happy that us white people want to, at least every Sunday, imitate you all, moreover in a positive light frankly speaking.
« Last Edit: May 16th, 2009, 5:13pm by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #1 on: Jul 24th, 2003, 9:04pm »
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Being a resident of Washington DC area for 17 years, this story is nothing new.  However, the lawsuit takes a differnet angle, so it is getting more "air time".   What's at stake this time?  Trademark rights.  The football team could lose millions of dollars in trademark rights.  Very costly to Dan Snyder.
 
Now...I must say I  disagree with Steg.  I think the name is very offensive.   It is a derogatory name for an Indian.  I think this is more than a 'political' correctness issue.  Do you think we could have a team named the Washington Sambo's?  NO.  It is an offensive term.  I think people poo-poo what Indians think.  Didn't they go away during the Trail of Tears?
 
Anyway, as a WASP, I don't think it is for me to decide what offends someone else.  I must admit that I too get fed up with the political correctness in the world, but the name 'redskin' is offensive to every Indian I have met or seen interviewed.  I say CHANGE THE NAME and I hope Snyder loses the suit!!!
 
« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2003, 11:01pm by DirkDiggler » Logged

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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #2 on: Jul 25th, 2003, 9:35am »
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I agree with DD on this one.  I see no problem with teams like the Atlanta Braves, or the Cleveland Indians, or the Florida State Seminoles... but the term "Redskin" is a derogatory one - in any day and age.  While the intent of the team may be to honor the Native American heritage, the method is not appropriate.
 
I'm not a big fan of the Redskins or their owner, so I could care less if he loses his trademark rights or the team has to change their name.  The NFL is a very strong enterprise and won't suffer because of the misfortunes of one team.
 
If you remember, St. John's University had a similar issue when their team name was the Redmen (which may be even less offensive than Redskin  )... they changed their name to the Red Storm.
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #3 on: Jul 25th, 2003, 11:01am »
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I can't stand Snyderman or the Redskins franchise (my wife's team). At this point though, I have to agree with Dirk and Philly. The term Redskin is a derogotory one, and they should change it out of respect.
 
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #4 on: Jul 25th, 2003, 3:56pm »
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Well, besides mine, thus far, we have the "objective" takes of two Eagles fans and a Giants fan.
 
That having been said, as per the intimation in my initial post, I suppose the term "Redskin" is more akin to a word like "wetback", definitely a racist label, than it is to "Seminole" or "Chief".  It's just that I have never actually heard the term "Redskin" used outside of the context of the NFL's Washington Redskins as an actual racial slur.
 
I also want to add this.  Among us, especially in light of DD's comment, I am not too far removed from American indian heritage, at least relatively speaking, and am VERY familiar with the "culture of foreignness" as some of you are aware.  One of my great grandmothers on my mother's side was American indian.  Her name was Mary Emma Weed.  I don't know the tribe... not one to look into that stuff, family trees and such (at least not up until this point in my life).  I never met her; my mother actually never met her.  She died before my mom was born.  My mother's father, my grandfather, who died when my mom was 11, was a late-in-life child as was my mother as was I pretty much (my mom was 36 when she had me).  It is also worth reminding you all that I am married to a Korean (from Korea, not a Korean-American) or as she likes to call herself an "authentic chinky" (cool chick), or even an "authentic 'kinky'", replacing the "ch" indicating China with a "k" indicating Korea (really cool chick).
 
In any case, I was, of course, just raised a "white kid".  I AM a "white guy".  BUT, make no mistakes, there are people out there in circumstances similar to mine, who would "hype up" their (actually albeit fairly remote) connection just to have a say, act like they are being victimized and perhaps even get some kind of benefit they really don't deserve (I know... I have such fools in my own family). I sincerely have concerns about the substantive treatment of the American indian in American society, REALLY, and someday if I ever get my "real" life to where I want it to be, which I WILL, and am in a position to "really" make a difference, I WILL.  I just think that these "PC" changes that we make are for the most part just a way to "appease" people and avoid real, substantive change.  As if changing the Washington Bullets name "really" has any "real" effect on gun crimes in America.  They were already the Washington Wizards when Columbine happened.  Someone has just got to step up and, with resolve, really challenge the NRA, but that's a "whole" nother discussion.
 
Ultimately and as such, I really don't care what happens with regards to the team name of NFL's Washington franchise.
« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2003, 6:43pm by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #5 on: Jul 25th, 2003, 4:28pm »
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SOLUTION:

 
Let's just move the team from DC to Boise and replace the arrowhead on the helmet with a red-skinned spud.
 
 
« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2003, 4:29pm by Philly » Logged
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #6 on: Jul 25th, 2003, 6:05pm »
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on Jul 25th, 2003, 4:28pm, Philly wrote:
SOLUTION:
Let's just move the team from DC to Boise and replace the arrowhead on the helmet with a red-skinned spud.
 

 
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #7 on: Jul 26th, 2003, 8:34pm »
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It's derogatory and Washington along with the NFL should take the lead here and follow the class of St John's University who changed from Redmen to Red Storm a few years back...are there any other examples of change out there???
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #8 on: Jul 26th, 2003, 9:50pm »
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on Jul 26th, 2003, 8:34pm, Bob_Oswego wrote:
...St John's University who changed from Redmen to Red Storm...

 
If someone can tell me what a "Red Storm" is, I'll start likin' the name (change)!
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #9 on: Jul 26th, 2003, 10:02pm »
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on Jul 26th, 2003, 9:50pm, StegRock wrote:

 
If someone can tell me what a "Red Storm" is, I'll start likin' the name (change)!

 
Red Storm is the storm on Jupiter that is the size of the Earth....(this is just a guess, but an educated one)
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #10 on: Jul 26th, 2003, 10:07pm »
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on Jul 26th, 2003, 10:02pm, DirkDiggler wrote:
Red Storm is the storm on Jupiter that is the size of the Earth....(this is just a guess, but an educated one)

 
If that's what they mean or could mean, then !  That is a VERY COOL team name, especially if that is what they were thinking when they changed it!
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #11 on: Aug 12th, 2006, 10:14pm »
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Here we go again... From "The REAL Feed":
 
Native American group rekindles Redskins name dispute
ESPN: NFL (12.08.2006 19:30)
A group of Native Americans filed a new legal challenge yesterday to trademarks for the name and logo of the Washington Redskins, The Washington Post reported, saying the team's name is a racial slur that should be changed.

 
At least, the last time this thread was appended to was in July of 2003,... a BLAST from the PAST, huh, guys,... our first year of existence, in fact?!?!
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #12 on: Aug 12th, 2006, 10:31pm »
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on Aug 12th, 2006, 10:14pm, StegRock wrote:
At least, the last time this thread was appended to was in July of 2003,... a BLAST from the PAST, huh, guys,... our first year of existence, in fact?!?!

 
Well, wishful thinking,... I missed the following thread which was created since this one dropped into oblivion.  In fact, it was just appended to earlier THIS YEAR:
 
http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/cgi-bin/theGridiron/YaBB.cgi?board=58;a ction=display;num=1123347146...
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Re: The Washington Sunburnt Dudes
« Reply #13 on: May 16th, 2009, 5:12pm »
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on Aug 12th, 2006, 10:31pm, StegRock wrote:
Well, wishful thinking,... I missed the following thread which was created since this one dropped into oblivion.  In fact, it was just appended to earlier THIS YEAR:
 
http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/cgi-bin/theGridiron/YaBB.cgi?board=58;a ction=display;num=1123347146...

 
I've decided to go with this thread on this one over the other more general derogatory team names thread since this post is absolutely Redskins-specific.  Anyway, as it turns out, the courts saw it Steggie's way... sort of... Well, at least it was concluded thusly,... like it or lump it...  From "The REAL Feed":
 
Redskins keep their NFL nickname
United Press International: Sports (16.05.2009 15:52)
WASHINGTON, May 16 (UPI) -- A federal appeals court in Washington has ruled the NFL's Redskins can retain their nickname.
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #14 on: Sep 15th, 2009, 7:02pm »
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The annual consternation commences...  From "The REAL Feed":
 
Indians ask Supreme Court if 'Redskins' offends
SI.com: NFL (15.09.2009 12:14)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A group of American Indians who find the Washington Redskins name offensive wants the Supreme Court to take up the matter.
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #15 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 2:08am »
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Done... for now,... actually,... presumably for awhile,... if not "for good" (double-entendre intended)...  From "The REAL Feed":
 
Court won't hear complaint about Redskins' name
FortWayne.com: Sports - Football (16.11.2009 18:23)
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court won't hear an appeal from a group of Native Americans who think the name of the NFL's Washington Redskins football team is offensive.
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #16 on: Aug 9th, 2013, 12:33am »
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Well, this has cropped back up in the news again today...
 
on Jul 14th, 2013, 10:52pm, DirkDiggler wrote:
Speaking of race, I do find it amusing that most DC natives and football fans are totally discounting the AMerican Indians objecting to the Redskins name.   I just do not get it.   ANd while people can say it is a  
positive' iimage, we are not American Indians.  AND historically, the first time the team name REDSKINS was used, it was in a negative commutation via stereotype.  Just change the fucking name already.

 
And, let's also keep in mind the Chiefs, Braves, Blackhawks, Indians and so on!
 


DD, do you really think they purposefully gave their team a derogatory team name and image?  Isn't that claptrap claim false on its face?  What owner of a real professional sports team would give their team a derogatory name, whatever the era?
 
P.S. (By the way, there are scores of people AND, most notably, Native Americans who have no problem with the name and who NEVER get mentioned because they do not fit the "narrative" :
 
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/29/retired-native-american-chief- would-be-offended-if-redskins-did-change-name/,
 
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9235381/poll-majority-approve-washingt on-redskins-name,
 
http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Native-American-Chief- Talks-About-Redskins/cdb3c94e-f5c6-4d98-9acd-18d7fb768bb7,
 
http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/professional/football/redskins/artic le_26b0f8d8-eb22-52f0-87df-c05e24bbfc0e.html,
 
http://www.metro.us/newyork/sports/nfl/2013/07/10/playing-the-field-are- the-redskins-changing-their-name/.)
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #17 on: Aug 9th, 2013, 1:19am »
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Do I think they purposefully gave a derogatory name?  Well, that is a question that I can not FULLY and completely answer because when the name was chosen, it may not have been 'derogatory'.   If you read stuff  from back then, it was common to see terms that we now consider derogatory used all the time.  We have an atlas from the 30s and you would amazed at how they describe people from across the world.  No way they could write that stuff now!!!!!
« Last Edit: Aug 9th, 2013, 1:34am by DirkDiggler » Logged

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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #18 on: Aug 9th, 2013, 3:13am »
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But, does it even make sense to give a team a derogatory name? Yet, that is what the left would have us believe!  I am telling you the left does not want us thinking for ourselves.
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #19 on: Aug 9th, 2013, 4:27pm »
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on Aug 9th, 2013, 3:13am, Stegrates wrote:
But, does it even make sense to give a team a derogatory name? Yet, that is what the left would have us believe!  I am telling you the left does not want us thinking for ourselves.
-

 
I think your reference to Left vs Right is not applicable here.  Here is a definition from Dictionary.com:
 
red·skin/ˈrɛdˌskɪn/ Show Spelled [red-skin] Show IPA  
noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive.  
a North American Indian.  

 
If the term is disparaging, why not change it?   This is NOT a new issue.  The issue has been raised for the past 30 years at least.   I know back in the 80s a petition was filed with the court.  
 
Let's see if good ole Danny Snider keeps the name if he loses protection of the name......
 
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #20 on: Aug 10th, 2013, 6:08am »
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on Aug 9th, 2013, 4:27pm, DirkDiggler wrote:
I think your reference to Left vs Right is not applicable here.  Here is a definition from Dictionary.com:
 
red·skin
noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive.  
a North American Indian.

 
If the term is disparaging, why not change it?   This is NOT a new issue.  The issue has been raised for the past 30 years at least.   I know back in the 80s a petition was filed with the court.  
 
Let's see if good ole Danny Snider keeps the name if he loses protection of the name......

 
You are right.  It is not left vs. right.  It is simply leftism run amok, and you, my friend, I fear are the case in point.  This is yet another example of the leftist exploitative philosophy of victimization.
 
But, anyway, you proffer this as if you have EVER heard the word "redskin" in any other context than with reference to the NFL's Washington D.C. franchise, let alone in a racist way, no less, towards a native American!  Be honest, for Christ's sake!
 
Indeed, I contest the definition you cited.  The term is not disparaging.  It may be offensive.  But, that is surely not the way it is meant.  That judgment is entirely subjective.  This is a quintessential example of the relativism the left propagates and uses to destroy the foundations of a society!
 
At any rate, I am guessing you feel the same way about the Chiefs, Blackhawks, Braves or, at least, the Indians, no?  Redskins is just where it begins, right?
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #21 on: Aug 10th, 2013, 8:19am »
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on Aug 10th, 2013, 6:08am, Stegrates wrote:

 
You are right.  It is not left vs. right.  It is simply leftism run amok, and you, my friend, I fear are the case in point.  This is yet another example of the leftist exploitative philosophy of victimization.
 
But, anyway, you proffer this as if you have EVER heard the word "redskin" in any other context than with reference to the NFL's Washington D.C. franchise, let alone in a racist way, no less, towards a native American!  Be honest, for Christ's sake!
 
Indeed, I contest the definition you cited.  The term is not disparaging.  It may be offensive.  But, that is surely not the way it is meant.  That judgment is entirely subjective.  This is a quintessential example of the relativism the left propagates and uses to destroy the foundations of a society!
 
At any rate, I am guessing you feel the same way about the Chiefs, Blackhawks, Braves or, at least, the Indians, no?  Redskins is just where it begins, right?

 
Wholly shit, do you like listen to Rush Limbaugh all day?  Because I offer a counterpoint I am being exploited by the leftists?  I am part of the leftism run amuk?  What the fuck?    
 
If you are NOT pleased with the definition I provided, I challenge you to get a definition that does NOT say it is offensive.   OR, even a definition that it is a positive reference to an American Indian...
 
Have YOU talked to a person of Native American decent?   Are you an expert on what is offensive to them? If the term was derogatory to Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, Whites,  etc it would of been changed a long time ago, don't you agree?
 
My point is that if it offends a group of people (not just 1 person) and the term is derogatory, then change the name.    
 
 
 
 
 
  
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #22 on: Aug 10th, 2013, 5:46pm »
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on Aug 10th, 2013, 8:19am, DirkDiggler wrote:
Wholly shit, do you like listen to Rush Limbaugh all day?  Because I offer a counterpoint I am being exploited by the leftists?  I am part of the leftism run amuk?  What the fuck?

 
If the shoe fits,... (read on...)
 
And, you are not really offering counterpoints, at least not properly so called.  What you are sort of offering are counterfactuals.  But, they do not serve to advance the argument... because the other facts still stand.
 
Also, how do you know anything about what Rush has to say about this?  From your "mainstream" sources?
 
Quote:
If you are NOT pleased with the definition I provided, I challenge you to get a definition that does NOT say it is offensive.   OR, even a definition that it is a positive reference to an American Indian...

 
You are just shouting at me.
 
But, here, let me give you one...  "Redskins" as used in the "Washington Redskins"!!!
 
Quote:
Have YOU talked to a person of Native American decent?   Are you an expert on what is offensive to them?

 
Have you?  Are you?
 
And, of course, this kind of rhetoric does NOT serve to advance the argument.  We are just going in circles.  What do you think the point of (most of) the articles I cited was?  Steve, I know it is hard to wake up from the liberal malaise of the beltway, but there ARE native Americans who actually like the team name, which is not even to mention all those who are ambivalent about it.   What about them?  Do YOU not have even an inkling as to their existence?  Or, does the claptrap in the mainstream media you plug into drown that out?
 
Quote:
If the term was derogatory to Asians, Hispanics, African Americans, Whites,  etc it would of been changed a long time ago, don't you agree?

 
It is not derogatory!  That is a loaded, leading question.  With respect to the Washington Redskins, the derogatoriness is only in the minds of those who take it to be such.  Think it through!  A fan cheers, "Go Redskins!"  Someone hears that (maybe not even a native American, but a white liberal) and gets offended.  Where does the derogatoriness lie?  This is actually a great example of the inherently divisive and intractable nature of relativism!
 
In relativism there is no objective reality.  The objective reality of how the word is being used in the situation of the NFL's Washington D.C. franchise gets totally lost.  Emotions run amok!
 
Let me ask you, Steve, what about the usage of the n-word by blacks in a friendly way toward each other or even between blacks and whites like the Lions' Tony Scheffler and Louis Delmas (link)?  Is that okay?
 
I ask because the reasoning behind what I am arguing here is similar to that of those who argue that it is okay for the n-word to be used in certain situations, like between blacks or friends.  It is because of the lack of animus in such situations, just like the fan who cheers, "Go Redskins!"  But, lefties want to have their cake and eat it, too.  Logical consistency means nothing to the shouting leftist demagogue.
 
So, what is your answer to the questions I asked above regarding this?  (Yes, this set of questions of mine is leading, intentionally so, though, because I do not think the leadingness will necessarily even matter.)
 
Anyway, to answer your loaded, leading question directly, no, I do not know that would necessarily be the case at all.  Then, again, I cannot off the top of my head think of an adequately precise analogue for those groups.  At the very least, what you are taking as a given is contestable on a few fronts.  Your taking it as gospel, though, is indicative of, not just ingestion, but digestion of leftist thinking, perhaps unbeknownstly on your part, mind you.
 
Quote:
My point is that if it offends a group of people (not just 1 person) and the term is derogatory, then change the name.

 
What demarcates a "group"?  Where does that end?
 
And, answer the question I have now posed to you (in essence twice now).  What about the Chiefs, Blackhawks, Braves and Indians?  Where do you stand on those?  Answering that would be substantive and could help us advance the argument.  But, like a lefty, you do not answer the questions posed!  You just keep shouting the same smug claptrap at me, moreover, as if this has been decided for all time and to think otherwise you have to be a total moron (see the wording of your last question to me).
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2013, 12:01am by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #23 on: Aug 24th, 2013, 3:29am »
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This article is from 2009, but an interesting read:
 
http://voices.yahoo.com/is-redskins-name-offensive-native-americans-4710 337.html
 
 
What do Native Americans themselves think?
 
This is where it gets kind of odd. In actuallity, less than 18% of Native Americans are offended by Indian Mascots in pro sports. In a March 4, 2002 Sports Illustrated 7 page editorial entitled "The Indian Wars", a poll was conducted amongst Native Americans. Surprisingly, the following information was gathered
 
"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83% of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters and symbols."
 
This begs the question: If it doesn't bother Native Americans, why are so many non Indians taking up a fight against Indian mascots in pro sports? The answer is rather odd, but could be attributed to the misunderstanding of the real meaning of Redskin, or it could simply be moral guilt. This is our attempt to make amends for something we were never a part of and could not control. The compaign against the Native American by the United States was a dark part of our nation's history. Perhaps this is the reason for today's offense towards the use of Indian mascots.
 
 
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Re: The Washington "Redskins" ~(Sunburnt Dudes)
« Reply #24 on: Aug 25th, 2013, 12:17am »
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on Aug 24th, 2013, 3:29am, BarnabyWilde wrote:
This article is from 2009, but an interesting read:
 
http://voices.yahoo.com/is-redskins-name-offensive-native-americans-4710 337.html

 
What a great contribution, Jim!  Thanks!
 
If you want to be thoughtful on this issue, this is a MUST-read! ...
 
The whole piece is quite compelling, but there is a particular point that gets discussed regarding how the team came to be dubbed the Redskins and, moreover, by whom.  It is a point that historically corroborates the very point I arrived at philosophically...
 
on Aug 9th, 2013, 12:33am, StegRock wrote:
DD, do you really think they purposefully gave their team a derogatory team name and image?  Isn't that claptrap claim false on its face?  What owner of a real professional sports team would give their team a derogatory name, whatever the era?

 
on Aug 9th, 2013, 3:13am, StegRock wrote:
But, does it even make sense to give a team a derogatory name?

 
Oh, back, Jim!
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2013, 12:22am by Stegfucius » Logged
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