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   G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
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   Author  Topic: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics  (Read 52414 times)
Travistotle
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #150 on: Mar 10th, 2005, 8:12pm »
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Well, what do you know?
 
I like the distinction between "freedom from" and "freedom to."  My point was rather that I think there is a more fundamental distinction between rights and responsibilites.
 
Jake,  
 
That little piece by the congressman was very interesting and quite insightful.   There were many brilliant statements, most especially this one: "Unpleasant facts can be hidden behind purposely meaningless language. As a result, Americans have been conditioned to accept the word "democracy" as a synonym for freedom, and thus to believe that democracy is unquestionably good."  That discussion of Orwell and meaningless language is all too true, a la words such as "diversity" and "tolerance."  Any public statement that professes to make a truth-claim (outside the hard sciences) is taken as "intolerant."  "Diversity" has collapsed into itself: it's "diversity for diversity's sake" now.  Because no one can any longer claim to have the truth (in a fundamental way), and therefore there is no longer an arbiter of truth and falsity, all voices are equally valid.  
 
I also liked the quote "The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth."  I do wonder, though, about the motives behind the political left's ideology -- is it altruism, or opportunism (to take office by means of this "platform")?  I suppose the same can be said of the political right, or even of politicians in general.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #151 on: Jan 29th, 2006, 3:19pm »
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Kurt Vonnegut's State of the Union
 
Custodians of chaos  
 
In this exclusive extract from his forthcoming memoirs, Kurt Vonnegut is horrified by the hypocrisy in contemporary US politics  
 
Saturday January 21, 2006
The Guardian  
 
"Do unto others what you would have them do unto you." A lot of people think Jesus said that, because it is so much the sort of thing Jesus liked to say. But it was actually said by Confucius, a Chinese philosopher, five hundred years before there was that greatest and most humane of human beings, named Jesus Christ. The Chinese also gave us, via Marco Polo, pasta and the formula for gunpowder. The Chinese were so dumb they only used gunpowder for fireworks. And everybody was so dumb back then that nobody in either hemisphere even knew that there was another one.
 
We've sure come a long way since then. Sometimes I wish we hadn't. I hate H-bombs and the Jerry Springer Show. But back to people like Confucius and Jesus and my son the doctor, Mark, each of whom have said in their own way how we could behave more humanely and maybe make the world a less painful place. One of my favourite humans is Eugene Debs, from Terre Haute in my native state of Indiana.
 
Get a load of this. Eugene Debs, who died back in 1926, when I was not yet four, ran five times as the Socialist party candidate for president, winning 900,000 votes, almost 6 percent of the popular vote, in 1912, if you can imagine such a ballot. He had this to say while campaigning:
 
"As long as there is a lower class, I am in it.
 
"As long as there is a criminal element, I am of it.
 
"As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
 
Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public schools, or health insurance for all?
 
When you get out of bed each morning, with the roosters crowing, wouldn't you like to say. "As long as there is a lower class, I am in it. As long as there is a criminal element, I am of it. As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
 
How about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes?
 
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth.
 
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
 
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
 
And so on.
 
Not exactly planks in a Republican platform. Not exactly George W Bush, Dick Cheney, or Donald Rumsfeld stuff.
 
For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course that's Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere.
 
"Blessed are the merciful" in a courtroom? "Blessed are the peacemakers" in the Pentagon? Give me a break!
 
It so happens that idealism enough for anyone is not made of perfumed pink clouds. It is the law! It is the US Constitution.
 
But I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened instead is that it was taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d'état imaginable.
 
I was once asked if I had any ideas for a really scary reality TV show. I have one reality show that would really make your hair stand on end: "C-Students from Yale".
 
George W Bush has gathered around him upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka Christians, and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or PPs, the medical term for smart, personable people who have no consciences.
 
To say somebody is a PP is to make a perfectly respectable diagnosis, like saying he or she has appendicitis or athlete's foot. The classic medical text on PPs is The Mask of Sanity by Dr Hervey Cleckley, a clinical professor of psychiatry at the Medical College of Georgia, published in 1941. Read it!
 
Some people are born deaf, some are born blind or whatever, and this book is about congenitally defective human beings of a sort that is making this whole country and many other parts of the planet go completely haywire nowadays. These were people born without consciences, and suddenly they are taking charge of everything.
 
PPs are presentable, they know full well the suffering their actions may cause others, but they do not care. They cannot care because they are nuts. They have a screw loose!
 
And what syndrome better describes so many executives at Enron and WorldCom and on and on, who have enriched themselves while ruining their employees and investors and country and who still feel as pure as the driven snow, no matter what anybody may say to or about them? And they are waging a war that is making billionaires out of millionaires, and trillionaires out of billionaires, and they own television, and they bankroll George Bush, and not because he's against gay marriage.
 
So many of these heartless PPs now hold big jobs in our federal government, as though they were leaders instead of sick (bastards). They have taken charge. They have taken charge of communications and the schools, so we might as well be Poland under occupation.
 
They might have felt that taking our country into an endless war was simply something decisive to do. What has allowed so many PPs to rise so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive. They are going to do something every fuckin' day and they are not afraid. Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the simple reason that they don't give a fuck what happens next. Simply can't. Do this! Do that! Mobilise the reserves! Privatise the public schools! Attack Iraq! Cut health care! Tap everybody's telephone! Cut taxes on the rich! Build a trillion-dollar missile shield! Fuck habeas corpus and the Sierra Club and In These Times, and kiss my ass!
 
There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: only nut cases want to be president. This was true even in high school. Only clearly disturbed people ran for class president.
 
The title of Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 is a parody of the title of Ray Bradbury's great science-fiction novel Fahrenheit 451. Four hundred and fifty-one degrees Fahrenheit is the combustion point, incidentally, of paper, of which books are composed. The hero of Bradbury's novel is a municipal worker whose job is burning books.
 
While on the subject of burning books, I want to congratulate librarians, not famous for their physical strength, who, all over this country, have staunchly resisted anti-democratic bullies who have tried to remove certain books from their shelves, and destroyed records rather than have to reveal to thought police the names of persons who have checked out those titles.
 
So the America I loved still exists, if not in the White House, the Supreme Court, the Senate, the House of Representatives, or the media. The America I loved still exists at the front desks of our public libraries.
 
And still on the subject of books: our daily news sources, newspapers and TV, are now so craven, so unvigilant on behalf of the American people, so uninformative, that only in books do we learn what's really going on.
 
I will cite an example: House of Bush, House of Saud by Craig Unger, published in early 2004, that humiliating, shameful, blood-soaked year.
 
In case you haven't noticed, as the result of a shamelessly rigged election in Florida, in which thousands of African-Americans were arbitrarily disenfranchised, we now present ourselves to the rest of the world as proud, grinning, jut-jawed, pitiless war-lovers with appallingly powerful weaponry - who stand unopposed.
 
In case you haven't noticed, we are now as feared and hated all over the world as Nazis once were.
 
And with good reason.
 
In case you haven't noticed, our unelected leaders have dehumanised millions and millions of human beings simply because of their religion and race. We wound 'em and kill 'em and torture 'em and imprison 'em all we want.
 
Piece of cake.
 
In case you haven't noticed, we also dehumanised our own soldiers, not because of their religion or race, but because of their low social class.
 
Send 'em anywhere. Make 'em do anything.
 
Piece of cake.
 
The O'Reilly Factor.
 
So I am a man without a country, except for the librarians and a Chicago paper called In These Times.
 
Before we attacked Iraq, the majestic New York Times guaranteed there were weapons of mass destruction there.
 
Albert Einstein and Mark Twain gave up on the human race at the end of their lives, even though Twain hadn't even seen the first world war. War is now a form of TV entertainment, and what made the first world war so particularly entertaining were two American inventions, barbed wire and the machine gun.
 
Shrapnel was invented by an Englishman of the same name. Don't you wish you could have something named after you?
 
Like my distinct betters Einstein and Twain, I now give up on people, too. I am a veteran of the second world war and I have to say this is not the first time I have surrendered to a pitiless war machine.
 
My last words? "Life is no way to treat an animal, not even a mouse."
 
Napalm came from Harvard. Veritas
 
Our president is a Christian? So was Adolf Hitler. What can be said to our young people, now that psychopathic personalities, which is to say persons without consciences, without senses of pity or shame, have taken all the money in the treasuries of our government and corporations, and made it all their own?
 
© 2005 Kurt Vonnegut Extracted from A Man Without a Country: A Memoir of Life in George W Bush's America, to be published by Bloomsbury on February 6, price £14.99
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steelkings
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #152 on: Jan 31st, 2006, 7:08am »
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Quote:
Kurt Vonnegut's State of the Union  
 
Custodians of chaos

 
JYJ, What a wonderful post. It may be the best non football post I have seen on this board !
 
Micheal Moore
I loved the piece he did when he and several hundred of his constituents followed the verison CEO into a movie theater and had their cell phones randomly ring troughout the entire movie. Point is, He is a comedian. The most powerful comedian in politics for sure. As for Farenhiet 911, I remember the house majority leader suggesting that 90 % of the movie was lies. Shouldnt we have been very disturbed if even 10% was true?
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #153 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 12:48am »
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Seems like Kurt Vonnegut has it in for those darn Christians...  seems appropriate in light of the recent passing of Coretta Scott King, widow of the late Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #154 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 12:50am »
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on Jan 31st, 2006, 7:08am, steelkings wrote:

Micheal Moore
I loved the piece he did when he and several hundred of his constituents followed the verison CEO into a movie theater and had their cell phones randomly ring troughout the entire movie. Point is, He is a comedian. The most powerful comedian in politics for sure. As for Farenhiet 911, I remember the house majority leader suggesting that 90 % of the movie was lies. Shouldnt we have been very disturbed if even 10% was true?

 
I should be worried by the assertions of a man who, as it seems, lies 90% of the time?  
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MordecaiCourage
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #155 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 4:56am »
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on Feb 1st, 2006, 12:48am, Philly wrote:
...  seems appropriate in light of the recent passing of Coretta Scott King, widow of the late Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

 
What??    Am I missing something here?
« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2006, 4:58am by MordecaiCourage » Logged
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #156 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 9:30am »
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on Feb 1st, 2006, 4:56am, MordecaiCourage wrote:

 
What??    Am I missing something here?

 
Just employing a tiny bit of sarcasm.  Vonnegut seems to be implying that Christians are a divisive group whose membership includes (at least the only ones that Vonnegut wants to mention) George W. Bush, Adolf Hitler, and a bunch of white supremecists.  From what I recall, MLK was a Christian too and was anything but a divisive white supremicist.  But Vonnegut, of course, wouldn't mention that because it doesn't support his (scary) dogma.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #157 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 10:31am »
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on Jan 31st, 2006, 7:08am, steelkings wrote:

 
JYJ, What a wonderful post. It may be the best non football post I have seen on this board !

 
Thank you SteelKings, please post any irreverent articles on the political fringe that you might find.  
 
on Feb 1st, 2006, 12:48am, Philly wrote:
Seems like Kurt Vonnegut has it in for those darn Christians...  seems appropriate in light of the recent passing of Coretta Scott King, widow of the late Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

 
I can't speak for Kurt Vonnegut, but I certainly wouldn't interpret his message that way.  I believe he is referring to the use of religion, by Bush and his ilk, for exploitative and purely political purposes.
 
For example, the shameless and unwarranted intervention in the Terri Schiavo case, and the strange fascination with State intrusion on stuff like abortion rights, gay marriage and school prayer.
 
(btw, I personally do not favor abortion rights or state-sponsored gay marriage, but I also don't believe anyones personal views on these issues should be imposed on the entire country. Even if those personal views belong to the sitting president).
 
To underscore the duplicity here, remember that when Bush was governor of Texas, he administered over the execution of 152 prisoners, typically spending around 15 minutes to contemplate their death row appeals.  
 
To put 152 executions in prespective, GW Bush presided over 62% of a total 244 Texas executions since 1974, in just 5 years as governor.
 
Since 1974, the states with the closest number of executions, after Texas are Virgina with 84, and Florida with 51. So GW Bush managed to execute more prisoners (152) than two entire execution-prolific states (Virgina and Florida with 135) and took just 5 years to do it.  
 
And remember this is a guy who, when asked to assess the number of innocent civilians killed in Iraq, responded as if he was just asked how many bananas were exported from Honduras last week; then proceeded to crack a joke:
 
Here's the actual exchange from the WH press conference:
 
Press Question: Since the inception of the Iraqi war, I'd like to know the approximate total of Iraqis who have been killed. And by Iraqis I include civilians, military, police, insurgents, translators.  
 
THE PRESIDENT: How many Iraqi citizens have died in this war? I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis. We've lost about 2,140 of our own troops in Iraq.  
 
THE PRESIDENT: I'll repeat the question. If I don't like it, I'll make it up. (Laughter and applause.)  
 
on Feb 1st, 2006, 12:50am, Philly wrote:

 
I should be worried by the assertions of a man who, as it seems, lies 90% of the time?  

 
Michael Moore has, and I think I have posted this here before, very careful delineated his factual evidence for the content in Fahrenheit 9/11:
 
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16
 
As far as this goes, I think it is very safe to say that:
 
1) If you think you can find something untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11, go ahead and email Michael Moore about it:  
 
mike@michaelmoore.com
 
I'm sure he will set you straight.
 
2) There is no doubt that while the great majority of facts in F9/11 are true, many of these facts are presented in absolutely the most unfavorable light.  If there are still partisan GOP congressman who are whining about this, they will have plenty of time to play with their Michael Moore dart board and inflatable Bop Bag after November 2006.
 
3) To be fair, it is a shame that there are no talented Republican-party supporting film-makers that have decided to create an expose of the Clintons.  There is certainly enough material there to create a very interesting documentary.... Maybe if Hillary is stupid enough to run for president in 2008.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #158 on: Feb 1st, 2006, 4:27pm »
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on Feb 1st, 2006, 10:31am, junkyardjake wrote:

 
 
I can't speak for Kurt Vonnegut, but I certainly wouldn't interpret his message that way.  

 
I think Mr. Vonnegut is implying exactly what Philly says he is implying. It's total sarcasm...and in it there  lies a hint at what is true or what is "perceived to be true" about Christianity. I think Kurt's implications are a clear barometer for his anti-Christian belief system. His system is tearing down the very foundation of Christianity at any cost without a true knowledge of what Christianity is all about. That knowledge can only be found in a PERSONAL relationship with God, through Christ. Mr. Vonnegut is not a believer, and in that simple fact alone, he will never understand it.  
 
Quote:

To underscore the duplicity here, remember that when Bush was governor of Texas, he administered over the execution of 152 prisoners, typically spending around 15 minutes to contemplate their death row appeals.  
 
To put 152 executions in prespective, GW Bush presided over 62% of a total 244 Texas executions since 1974, in just 5 years as governor.
 
Since 1974, the states with the closest number of executions, after Texas are Virgina with 84, and Florida with 51. So GW Bush managed to execute more prisoners (152) than two entire execution-prolific states (Virgina and Florida with 135) and took just 5 years to do it.  

 
I am thankful that I live in Texas........there is as well as there should be a price for taking someone elses life, especially in a brutal fashion. I like most Texans, would like to see the number rise and in a quarter of the time!!
 
Quote:

Michael Moore has, and I think I have posted this here before, very careful delineated his factual evidence for the content in Fahrenheit 9/11:
 
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16
As far as this goes, I think it is very safe to say that:
1) If you think you can find something untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11, go ahead and email Michael Moore about it:  
mike@michaelmoore.com
I'm sure he will set you straight.

 
 
Anyone who gets their facts from Mr. Moore should expect to recieve half truths.
 
 
Quote:

3) To be fair, it is a shame that there are no talented Republican-party supporting film-makers that have decided to create an expose of the Clintons.  There is certainly enough material there to create a very interesting documentary.... Maybe if Hillary is stupid enough to run for president in 2008.

 
You said a mouthfull when you said "create an expose" ....No need for one.....their downfalls were ridiculously obvious! They exposed themselves! The sad thing was that all the liberals loved the debauchery of it all.
 
Bottom line for me...I love my president and I love America!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #159 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 7:09am »
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You said a mouthfull when you said "create an expose" ....No need for one.....their downfalls were ridiculously obvious! They exposed themselves! The sad thing was that all the liberals loved the debauchery of it all.  
 
Bottom line for me...I love my president and I love America!

 
Maybe I'm reading to much into this however, is seems as if you are saying that if you dont love your current president then you dont love America. You can say thats not exactly what you meant however, in this country, the left doesnt like the right and vice versa. If they were hands they would never get washed. I had a very good friend of mine tell me I should never question the decisions of G. Bush. I should support the president at all times. "We have to have unwavering support". I'd say "What if I dont?" He'd reply that I was unamerican. Hurting my country. This from the same guy that darn neer organized the british everytime Clinton spoke during his presidency. Was he unamerican? No! He considered himself a patriot. House divided, Senate divided, country divided.
 
Quote:
George W Bush has gathered around him upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka Christians, and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or PPs, the medical term for smart, personable people who have no consciences.  

 
All KV is saying here is that people fill all kinds of agendas, support all kinds of rule, defend major points of interest in the name of God. IE KKK. " White people are better because god says so"  Embreonic stem cell research is bad because god says so! No matter how many lives it saves. We need prayer in school, we need the 10 commandments on the lawns of every federal building in the country. Because god says so.
 
People sling around the term "Liberal"
 
Question of the day:
 
Does liberal equal Communist ?
 
 
Sorry gang for my mispellings....God said it was ok.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #160 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 9:52am »
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on Feb 2nd, 2006, 7:09am, steelkings wrote:

 
Maybe I'm reading to much into this however, is seems as if you are saying that if you dont love your current president then you dont love America.

 
Here in-lies the problem with communication. I know your not getting personal here. I can see that you are putting out your opinion, which is great. What I meant when I wrote "Bottom line for me... I love my president and I love America" is exactly that. Bottom line for ME!! All too many times we (yes including me) jump to defend something before our mind has fully engaged the statement. Knee-jerk reactions are usually the outcome of "not listening" and is the unfortunate outcome resulting in communication breakdown.
 
Quote:

Question of the day:
 
Does liberal equal Communist ?

 
No......liberal equals permissiveness which in the end will equal man's downfall. We should all have freedoms, but even that should come with some restraint. Freedom does not infer power...it bestows responsibility. In other words...we are free to do what we ought to do...not what we want to do. If we are living an honorable life, the things we want to do should be lining up with the things we ought to do anyway.
 
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #161 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 10:34am »
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No......liberal equals permissiveness which in the end will equal man's downfall. We should all have freedoms, but even that should come with some restraint. Freedom does not infer power...it bestows responsibility. In other words...we are free to do what we ought to do...not what we want to do. If we are living an honorable life, the things we want to do should be lining up with the things we ought to do anyway.  

 
If that is true then consider:
 
 
 
 
Here's a reality TV show you will never see. Brought to you by the same people that brought you, The Nanny, The Biggest Loser, Mommy Swap and Home Makeover. This new show thrusts everyday people into the problem solving position of , "THE SOCIAL WORKER." This show is based in the large Midwest City of India-no-place. Here are samples of what our contestants will be dealing with. These situations are real and legit.
 
1.      Out of the warm and into the cold
 
A family of 4 lives in government-subsidized housing. Mom 43 and white, works at a Waffle House and brings home about 9 grand a year. She has 3 sons, 15, 12 and 5. After being laid off from his line job at GM, dad fell Ill with stomach cramps. He chooses to ignore the cramps due to a lack of medical insurance. He died when his youngest son was three. Colon cancer. Now after he was laid off they applied and received government-subsidized housing. Making ends meet on 9 grand a year. After her husband died she applied for and received social security for her children. Another 9 grand to live on. 18 grand total. Now the area that she lives in, her children would go to the school with the highest rate of drug and violence suspensions and expulsions in the city. She decides to rather than wait for her children to get vacuumed into the world of drug and violence, she would use the ss money to pay the tuition for her kids to enroll at a suburban school system. She insists that they involve themselves in all the extra curriculars that they can in an effort to keep them away from the neighborhood. The kids are thriving. A/B students. Then suddenly it all came crashing down. Its seems as HUD decided to require the community to upgrade the apartments in an effort to better the living conditions. New floors, New cabinets, frig Ect. This community decided to do this building by building. They forced people to transfer to different units in order to empty a building for rehab. Unfortunately when people transfer addresses HUD makes them reapply. With her husbands SS she no longer qualifies. The only place she can afford is the same complex she was at before. She pays for it now. The kids are back at the area school. No extra curriculars there. The school doesn't offer them. The kids at home now just hang out in front of the building with the gang. 3 more lives lost.
 
2.      The poor get poorer
 
Center township schools decide to take the best and brightest students from the public schools and send them to a charter school for higher education. They take the best teachers and students in order to give those with superior core group skills a better chance at a major scholarship. The problem was that after stripping the center township of the best teachers and students the istep scores dropped significantly at many schools. With the "no child left behind" legislation in effect these schools lost funding. Funding where its needed most. Out went programs like. Adult literacy education, Assisted school lunch and breakfast programs, many after school extra curriculars.
 
These are two of millions of social problems in this country. We choose to not peek out from under the covers and confront domestic issues. " Not with my money" should be our national slogan. When several Enron execs basically stole people's pensions and life savings we were ready to hang them all. But when "Big Oil" Raises the price for fuel to record levels because of alleged shortages then turns the highest profits in history we hide under the covers. Our governmental leaders stand on the razors edge of violating our constitutional rights everyday, breaking numerous laws in the name of freedom and we don't say a word. Wire-tapping? Are you kidding me? Nixon would roll over in his grave. Perhaps Bush should invoke a "No term limits " Legislation.  Our founding fathers had the foresite to look 200 years into the future when they wrote the constitution. Time is up! We as a country must look to the future. We must look at ourselves and find a better way. I look at our country and its domestic policies. I look and see how we treat our poor. I look and see how we theat our minorities. I look and see the values we teach our children. It's absurd. It's disgusting. It kind of makes you want to pull the covers back over your head.  We have one of the highest crime rates in the world when considering countrys of wealth. We have domestic policies that force people to steal or sell drugs to survive. Yet we will spend billions of dollars chasing the worlds criminals rather than feed our starving brothers and sisters." NOT WITH MY MONEY!"  
 
USA! USA! USA!
 
We sit and wonder why the rest of the world looks at us with judgemental eyes.  
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #162 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 11:51am »
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on Feb 2nd, 2006, 10:34am, steelkings wrote:

 
If that is true then consider:
 
....These are two of millions of social problems in this country. We choose to not peek out from under the covers and confront domestic issues.

Sorry steel..I'm not sure that I see the equation here between your response and my statement about freedom. Yes, I see where policy, redtape, and unwanted governmental involvement screws certain geographic, demographic, ethnic, and other socially bankrupt groups. Yes certainly, BIG GOVERNMENT has a huge part in the problem. However, we as a nation of people, also share in the burden that you speak of. You sk are, no matter where you live, most certainly someone's neighbor. As such, are you then NOT also responsible for their well-being? Sure, you pay your taxes and some of your money is earmarked for these social issues, but as an American with the freedom to do what you ought to do(incidentally, this is what my whole response was actually about and why I don't see the equation) shouldn't you also be spending your time as well as your finances to be a better neighbor. We/You are the hands...we/you are the feet....we/you are the engines who ultimately make the difference. We/You drive the programs you seek. If you don't like something going on, then get your butt out of the chair and get your feet moving instead of just running your mouth. (I am not personally saying you sk the individual, but you sk the citizen...as pertains to we, the citizens)
 
Quote:

 The kids at home now just hang out in front of the building with the gang. 3 more lives lost.

 
Quote:

 We have domestic policies that force people to steal or sell drugs to survive.  

 
Lost??? Forced??? They are neither lost nor forced..they have made a decision! Just because the poison is in the vile sitting on my kitchen counter doesn't mean I have to drink it. Granted...it is difficult when it stares you in the face and you feel like you have no alternative....but the fact is and always will be...you have a choice.
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #163 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 4:29pm »
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MC, Its all good. I love this shit

 
 
Quote:
...it is difficult when it stares you in the face and you feel like you have no alternative....but the fact is and always will be...you have a choice.  

 
My grandfather who is 98 will tell you that you dont know about hard choices until you spend the day in a bread line only to find out they are out of bread. Its not that bad for most these days, but for some the choice remains quite clear....Live or die
 
Quote:
You sk are, no matter where you live, most  certainly someone's neighbor. As such, are you then NOT also responsible for their well-being? Sure, you pay your taxes and some of your money is earmarked for these social issues, but as an American with the freedom to do what you ought to do(incidentally, this is what my whole response was actually about and why I don't see the equation) shouldn't you also be spending your time as well as your finances to be a better neighbor.

 
Ah, That quote was my favorite. I truely am a good nieghbor. I do more than most. You/we still have the problem of the covers being pulled tightly over our heads. Even though you hear your neighbors screams you dont see that its actually the whole nieghborhood screaming for help.  
 
 
 
Quote:
No......liberal equals permissiveness which in the end will equal man's downfall. We should all have freedoms, but even that should come with some restraint. Freedom does not infer power...it bestows responsibility. .  

 
Liberals are indulgent and lax?  Liberals are going to be the downfall of man? All this time I thought it ment Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. I Guess not. What should the liberal restrain? should they restrain from speaking their minds when they dont agree. Like Bob Knight said  " If your rape in inevitable, shut up and enjoy it" What ever!
 
Quote:
In other words...we are free to do what we ought to do...not what we want to do. If we are living an honorable life, the things we want to do should be lining up with the things we ought to do anyway

 
 
In other words...If you want to eat, get a job
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #164 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 6:05pm »
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Quote:
Thank you SteelKings, please post any irreverent articles on the political fringe that you might find.    

 
The following is an award winning poem written by the young Vanessa German. Dont worry about Mr. President, He's already seen it. Goggle sent it to him.
 
Let the wire tapping begin
 
Alrighty then Jake,  here it is.
 
 
 
 
 
Thank you George Muthaf@%#king Bush
 
 thank u
for makin it easier for meto get a tech9 or AR14 than a pap smear & a good education  
thank u from the first boy i kissed who u sent off to fight your war in iraq he returned home only by telegram & in a box  
thank u from me from my body from the woman i love that i want to marry & call my wife
without u bible thumpin daggers & demanding constitutional amendments to prevent us from loving this revolutionary love (az tho we cud soil the sanctitiy of marriage)
u cud nevah touch my love or fuck with my love  
its just the right u seek to deny us so we must fight for it in the end  
it's all a matter of voice of exercising choice & flexing the muscle of democracy  
which shudn't be pigeon holed marginalized or constitutionaly compromised under the pretense that who i love kiss fuck hold hands & make family with iz destructive to the fiber that quilts the fabric of america
which ironically happens to be cotton
that notoriously bloody lily white thread that my grandfather & hiz fathers fathers before picked by hand in mer rouge louisiana
i hav not forgotton that i am america
that my blood iz in these rivers & at the roots of these redwood treesi know that this country was built on the backs of blacks that were shackled strapped & stacked slashed gashed taxed & then cashed in onlike cattle
i hav not forgotton that i am america & even tho u want me to be quiet & invisible i will not  
i hav decided that if u r not with US then u r against US  
US the 99% of the population that makes less than 1.2 million dollars a year
the 43 million people that hav no health care
the 14 million children that got left behind that go to bed hungry every night
if u r not with US then u r against US
& we understandthat terror iz not always guns & knives & otherwise explosive devices of evil
sometimes terror iz just making no living wage going day to day pay check to pay check praying that no one gets sick
terror iz not knowing which of ur sons will fit the description & die while reaching back pocket for identification to prove he iz american but not american enuf to live free
terror iz being 13 having no access no choice & taking matters into ur own hands  
terror iz being a woman begging for emergency contraception when u've been raped taken by force & foresaken  
just like the constitution after the presidential election of 2000
which u did not winu stole like a purse off the shoulder of an old lady  
making america ur bitch
didn't anyone ever tell uwhen u take shit that's not urs u give it back & apologize but no.  
we realize that u mr bushr just the figure head the smoke screen the sony nike gmc tommy hilfiger blue jeans brand name of a regime of evil so vicious & arrogant u hav the audacity to murder in my name & call it justice call it liberation
long time come when all it really iz iz economic imperialism or occupation which iz the same thing hitler did in poland austria & hungry ...
if u really wanted to liberate u cud hav liberated delbert or r africa janine holloway africa micheal sims africa or mumia abul jamal  
it wasn't 6 weeks it waz 17 thousand lives not just american lives but human lives  
how sacred are they tell me answer me tell me how sacred are they  
stop trying to convince us that justice iz always this bloody
that liberation costs babies & mothers & homes & sons & lovers & fathers & dignity& truth & purity & hope & democracy  
thank u mr bushfor showing us that we must fight everyday for our freedom as tho we r fighting for our lives
obviously u r not going to beat a path of justice to our front doors  
this is my requiem for the last four years
my premptive strike on the next four years
this iz my love poemto america  
even tho he took u by force violated u forsook u  
before the eye of god made u barely recognizable to the rest of us
i still love u baby he can not shame u before my eyes
u r beautiful i will fight & die for u r the people & i am u  
this iz my love poem to america
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #165 on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 6:53pm »
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on Feb 2nd, 2006, 4:29pm, steelkings wrote:
MC, Its all good. I love this shit


 
sk...steel sharpens steel my brother! I appreciate the engagement.  
 
Quote:

 open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.  

 
That's what has me concerned sk...progress towards what?  Tolerance of what? Any ideas and behaviors outside the lines of what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, and praise worthy is not the kind of progress mankind needs.
 
Quote:

 What should the liberal restrain? should they restrain from speaking their minds when they dont agree.  

 
Absolutely not. I would say restraint should be practiced before one of the aforementioned ideas or lines of behavior is crossed. And that basic rule should apply to one and all, not just liberals.
 
Quote:

In other words...If you want to eat, get a job

 
More or less. I would say if you want to eat and are able-bodied, get a job  
 
P.S. I'm not too sure about the poem...but I DO HEAR it's message.  
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #166 on: Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:42pm »
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Let the wire tapping begin  
 
Alrighty then Jake,  here it is.

 
Awesome Poem Steel !  And don't worry about the wiretapping, that's been exposed for what it is, and the screws should be turning pretty tight soon enough.
 
Quote:
Bottom line for me...I love my president and I love America!

 
I agree GW Bush seems like a cool guy, in fact had I made it to the polls in Nov 2000 I would have voted for him.  (To give you prespective on where I'm coming from, I think Ronald Reagan was the most important president of the 20th century, and I am sometimes guilty of being a Reagan apologist).
 
However, I must admit when I saw that statement, I got the same impression as SteelKings, not pertaining to you personally Mordeci, but to a certain stubborn faction in this country that refuses to objectively seek the truth about what is going on.  A certain faction in this country that could witness GW Bush on CNN high on crack, robbing a liquor store, and still make apologies for his behavior.
 
Quote:
Freedom does not infer power...it bestows responsibility. In other words...we are free to do what we ought to do...not what we want to do. If we are living an honorable life, the things we want to do should be lining up with the things we ought to do anyway.

 
I think you are absolutely correct.  And one of the greatest responsibilities as a member of a democracy is to objectively seek the truth, and then act in the best interest of the country. Our system of government depends on this, and it can't be emphasized strongly enough.
 
You seemingly dismiss Michael Moore as irrelevant, in spite of his careful compilation of information that support his facts.  Believe me, it wasn't easy for me to side with someone like Michael Moore, but right now I think Moore is one of the true patriots acting in the best interest of truth.  
 
You seemingly dismiss Vonnegut as mocking Christianity, why ? Because his personal version of faith does not include retribution and the state-sponsored killing of civilians? If you read some of Vonneguts interviews and essays in the interest of true objectivity, it may cause you to conclude differently.
 
And you seemingly have the impression that GW Bush is acting in the best interest of the country. You may be right, but personally, what I see is a president with very little accomplished in the best interest of the country, and someone with a difficult time telling the truth.  
 
Is being truthful part of 'living an honorable life', especially in an enormously important capacity like US president, or is it subject to compromise because you claim that you are a 'Christian'?
 
My value ranking for assessing a government official is real simple 1) Upholding the Constitution and 2) Honesty, that's it. Anybody that can respect the Constitution in an ethical manner is ok by me, that puts GW Bush, and the majority of current Congressman for that matter, on my shitlist.    
 

 
Personally, I can list the very short list of Bush accomplishments as: 1) Tax cuts and 2) Finding two very qualified Supreme Court justices with impressive credentials. Conversely, his failings, his attempts to conceal information about his failings, his inability to follow-through on much of what he promises, and his inability to tell the truth about most everything in general, far outweigh those modest accomplishments.
 
Of course most prominent amoung his failings is the Iraq war, a fiasco with no legitimate purpose, at least not a legitimate purpose in the best interest of the country, unless you count the defense industry, the oil industry and the beneficaries of the rampant corruption that is going on over there. In my opinion, there is no conceivable way to justify spending $2 billion a week on the arrogant attempt to transform a country to democracy.  It's looting the treasury pure and simple.  US taxpayer subsidized free health care for all Iraqis? How is that in the best interest of America?
 
I bet if we diverted just half that $2 billion a week to some of the brilliant scientists in this country, they could have invented a car that runs on corn chips and junk mail by now. Wouldn't that have been a more constructive use of the money?  
 
Then our Middle East policy could be real simple:  
 
1) Nobody gets nuclear weapons  -and-  
 
2) Try to play nice. (you idiots)
 
But Saddam was a brutal dictator who killed his own people and had no respect for the rule of law, heck, he did stuff like torturing political enemies and detaining prisoners without due process.  Who the fuck does he think he is ? Hmmmm....in fact...killing civilians, torturing prisioners and violating the Geneva convention, wait,that's our job !  

 
Brave Americans fought a revolution against much greater odds to obtain their own freedom from tyranny, couldn't Iraqis have done the same?  And now we are still over there, almost three years after 'Mission Accomplished', and the ingrateful Iraqis want us out of their shooting gallery. Then again, I guess I'd want us out too, after all, we were the fucking idiots that allowed Suddam to rise to power in the early 80's, and still have the receipt for many of the imaginary WMD's.
 
Of course, Bush sealed all the presidential records so nobody could easily document how stupid our foreign policy has been over the last thirty years.
 
And how badly did the administration want to cover it's tracks concerning it's propaganda campaign leading us into the Iraq war?  So bad that they intentionally revealed the identity of Valerie Plame, a CIA operative involved in the prevention of actual WMD's wandering into the wrong country.  All to undermine her husband Joe Wilson, for reminding everyone that Suddam hadn't been a threat to anyone since 1998.
 
Don't believe Joe Wilson ? How about Colin Powell, who said this in 2001: "And frankly [the sanctions] have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..."
 
The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of it's powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State.  
--Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels in his diary

 
But Bush didn't know anything about the CIA leaker, right ?
 
Oh wait.....
 
Columnist Says Bush Knows Who Leaked Name
 
By Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 15, 2005; Page A07
 
Syndicated columnist Robert D. Novak, who has repeatedly declined to discuss his role in disclosing the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame, said in a speech this week that he is certain President Bush knows who his mystery administration source is.
 
Ah shucks, I guess that promise to 'fire whoever was found to have leaked Plame's name' was all bullshit too.  
 
But that's me disagreeing with policy. There is of course a remote chance that Iraq is transformed into a functional democracy. Then again, also consider the administration promised that Iraq was some kind of threat to America, and that we would be greeted as liberators, and the war would cost no more than $60 billion.  Have these guys really earned our trust?  
 
Oh wait, silly me, that's right I forgot, we need to 'fight them over there, so we don't need to fight them here', and '9/11 changed everything', and 'You're with us or against us', and 'We'll get Osama dead or alive' and 'freedom is on the march' and all that bullshit.
 
Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.  
--Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

 
Hmm, this is interesting....
 
Bush 'plotted to lure Saddam into war with fake UN plane'
 
By Andy McSmith  
Published: 03 February 2006  
 
George Bush considered provoking a war with Saddam Hussein's regime by flying a United States spyplane over Iraq bearing UN colours, enticing the Iraqis to take a shot at it, according to a leaked memo of a meeting between the US President and Tony Blair.
 
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article342859.ece
 
See the pattern here? Propaganda, deception, manipulation, whatever it takes.
 
"...there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires...a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."  - GW Bush, 2004
 
Oh shit, I guess that wasn't true either.
 

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edge sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.  
--Julius Caesar

 
So Mordeci, I hope you are correct about our president, I obviously have my concerns.  
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #167 on: Feb 4th, 2006, 6:57am »
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Quote:
Of course most prominent amoung his failings is the Iraq war

 
Thats number 2 on my list. I dont have lots of time now to support this but its got to be:
 
NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND
 
A poor inner city school that struggles with Istep scores, gets funding taken away. Now the kid that struggles in school also can do it hungry. Some of the first programs to go are substidised lunches. Last year two kids went to the hospital from heat exustion due to no summer A/C. That school lost funding due to poor scores. Huh?
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BAD American
« Reply #168 on: May 6th, 2006, 5:11pm »
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Not sure where this should go but I think this would be the correct spot
 
Very seldom do I agree with George's philosophies and/or ideals. This, however, strikes me as right (not completely sold on his Jackson comment though because I don't listen to his plight)...and I never argue with what I feel in my GUT to be right....so, without further ado.....
 
by: George Carlin
 
I Am Your Worst Nightmare. I am a BAD American. I am George Carlin.
 
I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid level governmental functionary be it Democratic or Republican!
 
I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way!
 
I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.
 
I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything.
 
I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, try to do it in English.
 
I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to.
 
My heroes are John Wayne, Babe Ruth, Roy Rogers, and whoever canceled Jerry Springer.
 
I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.
 
I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about it.
 
I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years In the desert after getting chased out of Egypt. I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you! So, shut up already.
 
I want to know which church is it exactly where the Reverend Jesse Jackson practices, where he gets his money, and why he is always part of the problem and not the solution. Can I get an AMEN on that one?
 
I think cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what color you are.
 
And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my drivers license. I think it's good.. and I'm proud that "God" is written on my money. I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't want you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the world for the next four years.
 
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes two parents.
 
And what is going on with gas prices... again?
 
If this makes me a BAD American, then yes, I'm a BAD American.
 
 
 
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Re: BAD American
« Reply #169 on: May 6th, 2006, 11:54pm »
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Fun post, MC... Well-placed too, if I may add...
 


AGREE...
 
on May 6th, 2006, 5:11pm, MordecaiCourage wrote:
I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way!

 
Agreed,... but I'm not so sure George and I mean this in exactly the same way.  I mean this in a rather "liberal-ly" way.
 
Quote:
I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, try to do it in English.

 
I believe I have the credentials/experience to speak on this (more or less in four languages )...  While I agree that anybody planning to live in a country for an extended period should make a hardy attempt to learn that country's tongue (I surely did, but only after realizing that a) I was likely going to be there for more than 1 or 2 years and b) speaking the native language meant getting way more pussy), how hard learning a foreign language is must be appreciated, and Americans unfortunately tend not to paradoxically because of our own regretful lack of appreciation for and consequent ineptitude at foreign languages.
 
Quote:
I want to know which church is it exactly where the Reverend Jesse Jackson practices, where he gets his money, and why he is always part of the problem and not the solution. Can I get an AMEN on that one?

 
MC, you expressed reservations regarding this one...  There is NO need to...  Definitely, if you switch out Jackson's name and insert Reverend Al's, there isn't!!!
 
Quote:
I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything.
 
My heroes are ... whoever canceled Jerry Springer.
 
I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years In the desert after getting chased out of Egypt. I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you! So, shut up already.
 
I think cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what color you are.
 
And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my drivers license. I think it's good.. and I'm proud that "God" is written on my money. I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't want you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the world for the next four years.
 
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes two parents.

 
...
 


DISAGREE
 
Quote:
I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.

 
No,... but they surely make it easier to kill and, thus, become a killer...  While I agree on a NUMBER of fronts that banning guns is FAR from being the clear-cut issue some people want to make it out to be, I do think that our gun laws are way outdated and need to be updated and that guns generally are a bad thing,... a necessary evil given the current state of affairs, not all too different from abortion.  I'm not even all too sympathetic with the "hunting" argument, which I think is as antiquated as the laws themselves.
 
Quote:
I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.

 
If these are absolutes, that's deplorable...  I don't hate the rich merely qua rich.  I do pity many of the poor.  I am not a fan of capitalism, especially, frankly speaking, the American brand thereof, but think capitalism is a necessary step in the evolution of economics and that, unlike Marx (who got A LOT right, but not this), but like Sir Thomas More (who got A LOT wrong, but not this), capitalism needs to run its course (before we can move toward a healthy socialism).
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #170 on: May 17th, 2006, 7:22pm »
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Now,... that's what Papa Steg likes to hear...  From "The REAL Feed":
 
Steelers' Porter to Bush: Uhh, never mind
SI.com: NFL (17.05.2006 17:00)
 
Better to be a wise man than a wise guy...
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #171 on: May 19th, 2006, 12:10pm »
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Anyone happen to see the most recent copy of Newsweek?  I didn't read any of it, but the cover had a picture of the White House with dark, ominous-looking clouds overhead and a big telephone receiver sitting on top of the building.  The headline was something to the effect of "Spying on Your Phone Calls"...
 
My goodness... talk about a partisan view.  From a number of different polls I've seen, Americans are split about 50/50 on the issue of the NSA receiving phone records (and that's with a lot of the misinformation being promulgated by both sides).  Why couldn't the headline have read "Protecting You from Terrorists" instead?  Or, more appropriately, why couldn't a media outlet take a completely unbiased view and just share the facts as known?
 
I happen to work in an educational field, one that has prospered quite significantly as a result of No Child Left Behind legislation under the current federal administration.  Yet nearly every car in the parking lot still has a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker - they did lose the election, right?  Our kitchen bulletin board is covered with propaganda regarding the events in the middle east, or a hunting accident, etc.  Yet when I post a newspaper article questioning whether my state's new governor (a member of the "trendy" political party) is merely continuing the corrupt business as usual, it is taken down almost immediately.
 
Sheesh.  Sorry... just had to vent some.  Feel free to comment if you feel compelled.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #172 on: May 19th, 2006, 1:53pm »
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why couldn't a media outlet take a completely unbiased view and just share the facts as known?  

 
Heres one!
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #173 on: Jun 8th, 2006, 6:17am »
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Well, I am finally getting around to the response I promised (MC) way back (I'm going off of four-month-old notes here, which seem more like hieroglyphics at this point, so... ) regarding this extract from comedian Kurt Vonnegut's "memoirs" that JYJ posted and the subsequent "discussion".  This won't be too "Steggie" lengthy as to entertain the extract line-by-line would be to entertain the asinine.  I guess Vonnegut's still miffed about losing his class president election in high school. Bottom line, WHAT GARBAGE!!!  Sorry, sk, I see you liked it, but... it is what it is,... namely a bunch of fringe, angst-filled, biased, WAY over-generalized "junk" (you find in a junkyard ) written just to rile people... and make a buck.  I'm not going to say it's all false.  It's not.  That's the insidious part of it, like Michael Moore's modus operandi, facts packaged as truths and mixed with a lot of falsities all to make for one big falsehood.  But, I'll get to that later.
 
I was tipped off at the very outset that Vonnegut's spiel about the facts of the matter was going to be garbage as it starts off with a not insignificant factual error.  He writes...
 
Quote:
"Do unto others what you would have them do unto you." A lot of people think Jesus said that, because it is so much the sort of thing Jesus liked to say. But it was actually said by Confucius...

 
The FACT of the matter is that Confucius's is worded in the negative, "Do not do unto others what you do not want done to yourself (references:  http://plato.STANFORD.EDU/entries/confucius/ and http://www.crystalinks.com/confucius.html)," and that the two "versions", Confucius's and Jesus's, work as two halves of a whole, as per this "non-politically-motivated and non-inflammatory" piece:  http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/golden.html.  When you really think them through, each needs the other to really be efficacious (unlike what Vonnegut is tendentiously suggesting).  In any event, the two are talked about respectively as the "positive Golden Rule" and the "negative Golden Rule", both of which are contained NOT in Confucianism, but in Judaism and by extension Christianity, and the whole ball of wax is considered the "Ethic(s) of Reciprocity".  FURTHERMORE, the appearance of the "Golden Rule" in either form, i.e. the "Ethic of Reciprocity", in Confucius is PREceded by at least four others, the first of which is attributed to the Egyptian philosophical tradition and the second of which comes from Judaism, of which Christianity is a branch, albeit a broken one (reference:  the "History" section on the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity).  YIKES!  HOW WRONG, comin' out of the gate, could this guy have been, Jake?
 
BUT,... I digress...  You guys know what a quintessential bullshit artist is, right?  It's the guy who isn't just full of shit all the time but especially when he knows that his audience is not well-versed in, better yet totally ignorant of, what he is bullshitting about.  YUCK!  You see... ever since JYJ made this his personal "Libertarian" propaganda thread, that's the kind of bullshit that this thread has become laced with, which, for the umpteenth time, is NOT what this thread was supposed to be nor had to be about (except according to Jake).  Mind you, all this bullshit is not Jake's (as is testified to by Vonnegut's, not Jake's, inaccurate "golden rule" bullshit).  But, it is JYJ who does SO MUCH of this cutting-and-pasting and linking to of articles (that are ALL OVER THE PLACE, but, mind you, all from this one-sided point of view).  NOBODY could know ALL this bullshit, not even Jake (again, as is testified by Vonnegut's opening bullshit line about the "golden rule", which neither Vonnegut nor Jake really had a clue about), and all of this is what makes for that aforementioned "bullshit artist" ambience.  ...  Side note:  in an ironic twist of fate, I was actually warming up to the Libertarian Party (via other "Libertarian" friends, a couple of whom I mention on this thread who have also been turned off by Jake) prior to Jake's "pitch" here.  That's something you've got to seriously reflect on, JYJ.  You're kind of defeating your purpose.  A Steggie motto to remember:  "When you get this over-zealous about divisive, fringe politics, it doesn't become you, in fact, you become it!"
 
Next, I want to,... the philosopher in me needs to respond to "truth vs. fact" in light of...
 
Quote:
As for Farenhiet 911, I remember the house majority leader suggesting that 90 % of the movie was lies. Shouldnt we have been very disturbed if even 10% was true?

 
Quote:
Michael Moore has, and I think I have posted this here before, very careful delineated his factual evidence for the content in Fahrenheit 9/11:  
 
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16  
 
As far as this goes, I think it is very safe to say that:  
 
1) If you think you can find something untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11, go ahead and email Michael Moore about it...  
 
...  
 
2) There is no doubt that while the great majority of facts in F9/11 are true, many of these facts are presented in absolutely the most unfavorable light.

 
Before we deal with this 10%-90%-whatever percent business, let's hammer out some basics...  What do we mean by "truth" here, and what do we mean by "fact" here?  Let's deal with the latter, easier one first,... "fact"...  Here we are dealing with statements/perceptions/opinions/etc. relative to "what is".  (Here we won't even get into the abstruse, but not irrelevant, issues of the metaphysical and ontological commitments that go into just contemplating "what is".  Anyway...)  After all, "what is" is "fact".  If an opinion is "factually accurate", we think of it as being consistent with "what is".  Otherwise, we think of it as "factually inaccurate".  Now, while being "factually accurate" is a bottom line of sorts, that's not where the picture ends.  It's actually just where it begins.  There is something, an "accuracy" if you will, beyond "factual accuracy",... namely "truth" (mind you, I am not just talking about "truth" in the trivial sense of "factual accuracy" like is exhibited in sk's use of the word "true" in the quote above).  Something can be 99%, even 100% "factually accurate" and NOT be true.  "Truth" is where human cognition, our human way of cognizing, comes into play.  It involves discerning which facts are important/necessary and which are unimportant/superfluous in the "bigger picture"/given a certain "bigger picture", the understanding of which is being sought after, which fact(ors) link/combine like jigsaw puzzle pieces and which don't and need to be kept separate, the number of factual pieces the given jigsaw puzzle has, what facts are sufficient to establish a truth and which are merely necessary, etc., etc.  Let me give an example that will make what I'm talking about here a little more clear...  I live in Hawaii.  I am registered to vote here.  I have my driver's license here.  My wife works here and I will be during the summer.  We pay Hawaii state income tax.  I will be paying in-state tuition.  We are thinking we would like to settle here someday.  In the same sense that someone who lives, works, etc., "lives their life" in New Jersey can say he is a New Jerseyian, I am a Hawaiian,... again,... in that sense.  BUT, we all know that it would be, at best, tendentious, if not downright false, for me to go around referring to myself as a Hawaiian... or a New Jerseyian at this point for that matter.  I mean... if you want to make this a little more clear, replace me with a hypothetical child Gino and I have here in Hawaii.  It's just not true that I am, or even that this hypothetical child would be, Hawaiian, except in a VERY qualified (tendential) sense.  But, 100% of the facts I state above are (at least arguably) 100% factually accurate.  The fact of the matter, though, is that the truth of those matters goes beyond the simple few facts I outline above.  With respect to my claim that I am Hawaiian, there are more that need to be considered (like the history of Hawaii as a state vis-a-vis other mainland states and how being Hawaiian entails "more than the usual") and there are some that need to be ignored or at least put in perspective (like,... well,... ALL the ones I mention above) to get to the truth of the matter.  "Truth" involves putting together the correct and only the correct "factual accuracies" that make up the "bigger picture".  Truth is that bigger picture.  It is (at least in a sense) factually accurate to say that I, or if that is a stretch for you, that aforementioned hypothetical child of mine and Gino's, is Hawaiian, but we KNOW that's NOT the truth.  This is what we call "half-truth".  In fact, it's NOT true at all even though the facts of the matter mentioned are.  Truth does not merely equal the sum of its parts.  The parts themselves, the facts, really have no meaning in and of themselves considered in isolation.  Truth is a gestalt.
 
That's a trivial little real-world example.  So, what about that 90%, as per sk's post, of Fahrenheit 9/11 that is a lie and the 10%, as per sk's post, or that "great majority" of facts, as per JYJ's post, that is true?  JYJ captures, in short, the idea I'm getting at here when he wrote that the facts in Fahrenheit 9/11 are "presented in absolutely the most unfavorable light."  But, he just states it in a way that makes it seem like that is still legit.  What I am saying is that the "bigger picture" this movie paints is NOT the truth regardless of all of its factual accuracies (which I don't think are all that accurate, actually), and THAT is more important, i.e., truth is more important than individual factual accuracies.  Facts qua facts have no meaning (read Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach:  an Eternal Golden Braid if you want this teased out for you ad nauseam).  Truth lies in meaning and, therefore, in context.  A fact is just datum.  Facts can be combined and configured in ALL kinds of erroneous ways, and, furthermore, ALL kinds of things can be referred to as facts.  But, the truth is the truth.  It just takes more rigor and discipline to find/formulate (however you want to word it depending on your metaphysical commitments) what the truth is.  I can weave a story where ALL the facts are true, but if they are not the important ones and I've left a bunch out, the truth will remain hidden... OR be presented as whatever I want it to be.  YIKES! So, going back to sk's breakdown, if only 10% of the facts of the movie were inaccurate, not only should we not be very disturbed, but we should realize that the likelihood that the movie presents something that even just resembles the truth is probably NIL.  Hell, even if the great majority of facts were accurate, as JYJ states, even if ALL the facts presented were accurate, the bottom line is that it doesn't present the truth, which JYJ also (unwittingly) admits.
 
In closing,... some briefs thoughts and notes...
 
Fact-finding, as opposed to truth-seeking, is a mark of the short-sighted man, and the short-sighted man has trouble seeing "outside the box" while convincing himself of many a conspiracy inside it.  The facts are the trees.  The truth is the forest.  The trees grow so fast in these posts above that you become so disoriented and you don't even know you're in a forest, a completely fabricated one, mind you, that there is no hope of escape until you just simply realize that it's merely a fabricated forest that in no way represents truth.  You can't try to go "tree-for-tree" with JYJ because he has an endless inventory of other people's trees he can easily throw at you without thinking it all through and making sure it all adds up... to something, anything cogent, which he apparently doesn't care to do,... as per his implicit acceptance of the first line of Vonnegut regarding the (history of the) "Ethic of Reciprocity".  I wonder how MANY more factual inaccuracies his stuff is laced with.  My guess,... he doesn't even know!  And, that is not even to mention, then, the truth of a) what he is trying to get at and, moreover, b) what he himself is doing.
 
JYJ says he is a Reagan apologist, and yet a "follower of truth and the constitution"...  I love the old gipper,... but are you kidding me???  (I'm more of a constitutional reconstructionist, so... I have an out.)
 
JYJ's response to MC's (and Philly's) dismissing Vonnegut, "Because his personal version of faith does not include retribution and the state-sponsored killing of civilians?", is... non-responsive.  Furthermore, it's an inappropriately LOADED response.
 
Okay,... I can't take any more...  There is just TOO MUCH here that needs "unpacking"!
 
Needless to say, I'm sure Vonnegut's "memoirs" won't be being read,... well,... period, relatively speaking, no less a year from now, 10 years from now, 100 years from now, 1,000 years from now...  I have a sneaky suspicion Descartes, that drunken fool as JYJ puts it, will be.  So, go right ahead and base some part of your world-view on some fool comedian who is a mere product of the counter-culture of his time and doesn't even have the sense to make sure the FIRST LINE of his spiel is correct.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2006, 4:52pm by Stegfucius » Logged
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic:  Politics
« Reply #174 on: Jun 8th, 2006, 11:12am »
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on Jun 8th, 2006, 6:17am, StegRock wrote:
Well, I am finally getting around to the response I promised (MC) way back  

 
Thanks...I've been looking forward to hearing the "Stegosophical" side to this debate.
 
 
Quote:

Fact-finding, as opposed to truth-seeking, is a mark of the short-sighted man, and the short-sighted man has trouble seeing "outside the box" while convincing himself of many a conspiracy inside it.  The facts are the trees.  The truth is the forest.  The trees grow so fast in these posts above that you become so disoriented and you don't even know you're in a forest, a completely fabricated one, mind you, that there is no hope of escape until you just simply realize that it's merely a fabricated forest that in no way represents truth.  

 
I am a simple man. I do not use philosophy as eloquently as others can, so I don't even try. I can follow a being's philosophical train of thought...I just can't speak it! That being said, Steg you are right on the mark   with your response. In your closing statement about "fact-finding",  the part of the statement I outlined in bold is exactly the point I was trying to convey to JYJ and sk in the first place.  
 
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