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Drew Rosenhaus
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #175 on: Jun 8th, 2006, 5:23pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2006, 6:17am, StegRock wrote:
Fact-finding, as opposed to truth-seeking, is a mark of the short-sighted man, and the short-sighted man has trouble seeing "outside the box" while convincing himself of many a conspiracy inside it.

 
For a second there I flashed to the truth of WMDs in Iraq.
 
 
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #176 on: Jun 8th, 2006, 6:38pm »
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #177 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 1:54pm »
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Bush's Response to Hurrician Katrina
 

 

 
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #178 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 4:05pm »
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #179 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 4:24pm »
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Ditto Steg!!!   and may I add this sk,  even though your post is a Bush bashing campaign, the underlying Christian bashing tones are glaring. I have the feeling that if you ever found yourself down and out, you'd suddenly have no problem taking charity from the Christian community you so dearly love to mock!!! Trust me in this...there will be no other organizations that will be there for you if you fall.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #180 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 6:55pm »
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Great post SteelKings !  
 
I'd nominate you for the Presidential Medal of Freedom for your thoughtful act of patriotism,   but evidently they only give that out to liars and war criminals these days.
 
Mordecai, chill out man.  Nobody is lambasting Christians, that cartoon is only pointing out that there are easily manipulated people out there, evidently around 30% of the US population these days, who believe that government equates to religion, and that GW Bush somehow represents the personification of their religious convictions.   To many of us, this is obviously silly, as it's kind of like saying that Larry the Cable Guy would be a great spokesperson for Abercrombie and Fitch, and we should book Rosie O'Donnell to sing the national anthem at the 2006 Super Bowl.
 
Government involvement in religion is prohibited by the Constitution, as I'm sure you know, and for a very good reason.   Do you recall why ?
 
Steg, great post, as usual, lots of words, but unable to refute any of my points.  (Although you did pick up on Vonnegut's inaccurate positive-that-should-have-been-negative quote of the golden rule.  Nice work Grammar-Queen!)
 
'I'm sorry, I've never been a fan of books. I don't trust them. They're all fact, no heart. I mean, they're elitist, telling us what is or isn't true, or what did or didn't happen. Who's Britannica to tell me the Panama Canal was built in 1914? If I want to say it was built in 1941, that's my right as an American! I'm with the president, let history decide what did or did not happen.'  -Stephen Colbert
 
SteelKings, if you have not seen the transcript to Colbert's White House Correspondents Dinner speech, click here:
 
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_con tent_id=1002461887
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #181 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 8:20pm »
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on Jun 13th, 2006, 6:55pm, junkyardjake wrote:

 
Mordecai, chill out man.

 
By chill out do you mean silence my opinion? Or maybe you mean for me to NOT stand up for what I believe in! I do not care what side of the fence anybody is on Jake. I respect everybody's belief system and do not bash them for what they stand for. I do not agree with many of the sysytems out there, but that doesn't give me the right to bash them does it? What I am tired of is the pounding that Christianity takes again and again, because of high profile people who claim to be Christians. Posts like sk's are biased, anti-Christian fodder because they shed nothing but negative sentiments towards the Christian faith because it assumes that every Christian is exactly like our President. Take the sign on the Baptist Church picture for instance. That sign likely does not exist. You can tell it is either computer animated, or if it's real, some prankster put it up. But....the image sticks...and that image is foul. How many times has that picture circulated around the world. Someone reading that could summize that Baptists are a foul people because they believe they are responsible for putting that up. Far-fetched you say? If you say that then you are naive. Bottom line JYJ...I give you a resounding NO I will not chill out!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #182 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 10:35pm »
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Quote:
there will be no other organizations that will be there for you if you fall.

 
You are right, organizations like our federal government wont be there. Not there for our elderly. Not there for our poor. Not there for me if I need them. They are to busy blowing shit up and killing people in the name of capitalizm. To busy justifing attempts or plans to violate numerous civil rights in the name of Christianity. Opp's sorry, moneys all gone.
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #183 on: Jun 13th, 2006, 10:48pm »
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Purhaps this will make you guy's feel better
 

 

 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #184 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 12:18am »
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Steg finally responds... 2 to 3 hours spent...
 
sk posts some silly pics... 2 to 3 minutes spent...
 
JYJ compliments sk on his picture-book and throws out yet another link... PRICELESS!  Or, should I say, worthless?
 
...
 
on Jun 13th, 2006, 6:55pm, junkyardjake wrote:
Steg, great post, as usual, lots of words, but unable to refute any of my points.

 
I didn't even (want to) try to...  I thought with just a little reading between the lines that was clear...  I get where you stand.  I see how deep you are dug in.  I see how you "argue".  And, all in all, I see that there is little to no hope of a meeting of the minds.  So, there is little to no reason for me to address your stuff with any degree of thoroughness.  It's not like you do mine,... so I don't know where you come off...  And, mind you, as I also pointed out,... it's hard to refute YOU because so much of what you post is other people's shit.  I did not just refute,... I DEMOLISHED this Vonnegut on the "golden rule" point, and he is a guy whose words you identify with, so... When all you expose yourself to (at least in that post, which, mind you, was the catalyst of and was what framed the ensuing "discussion") is indirect refutation, all I can do is refute "you" indirectly, i.e. refute what you've posted, which just so happens to be someone else's words, someone else's words, though, that YOU chose to post!
 
Quote:
(Although you did pick up on Vonnegut's inaccurate positive-that-should-have-been-negative quote of the golden rule. Nice work Grammar-Queen!)

 
At least that's a "confirmed" error, and I would go as far as to say dastardly LIE because of the way Vonnegut is "using" that (erroneous) "fact".  This is no insignificant error, moreover, again, in the context that he is presenting it.  You seem to minimize my commentary on this parenthetically concluding with what seems to be a potshot, "Nice work, Grammar Queen!"  But, there is no refutation there... as you seem to like to point out about me.  But, hey, I'm not the one subscribing to garbage that is academically, severely unsound, right in the first sentece no less.  But, hey, I guess he thinks he is catering to a readership of mental midgets, who he can just say any old shit to.  If you don't understand that this confirmed error in fact of this clown's is quite significant and should cause you to take pause in everything the guy says, then, as aforementioned, there's is nowhere to go here, and, moreover, reason for me not to respond to your posts point-by-point.  Mind you, what I pointed out about this "golden rule" LIE is just the tip of the iceberg.  You see how much effort it took JUST to unravel that relatively minute mess.  That's yet another reason I'm not bothering refuting you point-by-point anymore.  It's impossible to "refute" you point-by-point.  There just aren't enough hours in day, days in a week, weeks in a month, months in a year, and years in my life...  I spoke to this when I wrote about the distinction between "fact" and "truth".  What I wrote there either speaks to you or it doesn't.  It obviously doesn't speak to you.  Oh well! I believe in things in a targeted manner, making sure all my ducks are reasonably in a row along the way because JUST ONE, SMALL out-of-place duck can lead to a garbage paradigm.
 
In all honesty, George Bush himself AND THE MAJORITY OF POLITICIANS at the time look to have unfortunately made this kind of error (of not making sure all the ducks are in a row) with respect to weapons of mass destruction and the promises that could reasonably be made to the American people regarding the logistics of a war in Iraq, and we are seeing some of the negative consequences of those miscalculations.  That having been said, I still think the big reasons behind the war are "bigger picture" and can't be explained to the public for both security and philosophical reasons that your run-of-the-mill Joe citizen can't "process".  The bottom line (for me) is that this operation is not going that badly and, for the millionth time right here on this thread, if we have planted the seeds of like a South Korea in Iraq (and Afganistan) with these operations, we've done the middle east and the world a service, the fruits of which humanity will enjoy for centuries to come, long after we can thank George Bush for addressing the "bigger picture" instead of playing to small-minded "politics of the day" even though there were some mistakes made at crucial points.  Mind you, THOUGH, this "ducks in a row" technique I'm talking about does not really regard making specific decisions that need to be made faster than all the details of an "operation" can be thought through.  It more so regards forming general paradigms and world-views, about which Bush and America I think are in the right ballpark regarding the middle east and the tack we've taken.  ...  A side point,... I was watching Russert a few weeks back and a revealing statement was made... just in the natural course of the discussion.  This guy said that WE, the American public, can't handle all the casualties, both to Americans and Iraqis, that WE're still seeing...  The revealing part there that went right by the panel is the "WE"...  When Saddam was doing it, WE Americans didn't have to see it then, right?  We didn't have to "deal with it".  But, that doesn't mean it didn't exist.  We're turning into such a bunch of ostriches.  Again, this isn't an argument about the war, per se.  It's just that even the brightest of US don't even realize the absurd things WE're even saying anymore,... furthermore, in such a natural way that it goes by unnoticed.  Saddam-cam circa 2001...  That would have been some good "reality" TV, huh?
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #185 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 12:44am »
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Yes, sk, your pics show that you are at least "even-handed"...
 
BUT...
 
on Jun 13th, 2006, 10:35pm, steelkings wrote:
You are right, organizations like our federal government wont be there. Not there for our elderly. Not there for our poor. Not there for me if I need them. They are to busy blowing shit up and killing people in the name of capitalizm. To busy justifing attempts or plans to violate numerous civil rights in the name of Christianity. Opp's sorry, moneys all gone.

 
...with the pics and the quote above are you suggesting other countries have this down any better???  How about spending some time living abroad (not on a military base) for a significant amount of time,... in South Korea,... no less, Russia, China, North Korea, the Middle East, Africa, South and Central America, etc., etc.???  The list of options, even from the average American's "buffered" vantage point, grows small, no?  Australians,... perhaps they've "figured it all out".  Point being, this self-loathing, which has become SO American, is getting US nowhere.  Federal government qua federal government,... hell, for that matter, government qua government (no need to qualify) is never going to be a popular institution... anywhere.  It's the nature of the beast.  That said, "federated"/"representative" government is the price we humans have to pay for liberal (republican) democracy.  ...  The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence, right?  But,... trust me,... after just 6 months in Nokpon-dong, South Korea, you (two) would be fighting your way back over the fence... (while, ironically, though I surely prefer it on this side, wouldn't need to, but did,... because I "get it").  So, why don't you two go grab yourselves an American flag and a box of matches and have yourselves a party?  Just don't do it here and expect NOT to be called out on the carpet for it.  ...  Or, JUST DON'T DO IT HERE!!!  Just share more "moderate" and/or "specific" thoughts on "this or that" particular issue LIKE, by and large, THOSE THAT WERE BEING SHARED AT THE OUTSET OF THIS THREAD BEFORE JAKE SHOWED UP!!!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #186 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 1:04am »
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on Jun 13th, 2006, 10:48pm, steelkings wrote:
Purhaps this will make you guy's feel better
 

 
LOL.......sk....I love you man! You are hilarious. Don't get me wrong about my prior post. I'm not looking to "protect" or "defend" what you guys call the Religous Right.  I actually enjoy your sense of humor. The problem lies with people (like yourself) bashing things that they truly do not understand. Nor do they always realize they are even bashing something. Your posts here on the politics thread have an obvious anti-Christian slant. At some point in your life "religion" has soured you it seems. If this is so, I can tell you the probable reason for it is that you never personalized it between yourself and God. In all likelyhood you looked at what "man" has done with, and in his faith (or lack thereof), and made a judgement about who Christ is. If you try to determine who He is by watching man, then you are doomed to "miss" Him. The same can be said of most any figurehead you can name that people follow as a religion. People just don't get it...or they get it the way they want to hear it. If you want the truth go straight to the source!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #187 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 1:50am »
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on Jun 13th, 2006, 10:35pm, steelkings wrote:

 
You are right, organizations like our federal government wont be there. Not there for our elderly. Not there for our poor. Not there for me if I need them. They are to busy blowing shit up and killing people in the name of capitalizm. To busy justifing attempts or plans to violate numerous civil rights in the name of Christianity. Opp's sorry, moneys all gone.
 

 
Do you really believe that? All of this in the name of Christianity? Are you sure that Christianity is at the root of all you suggest? I guess if we were a Muslim nation you'd have suggested it was all in the name of Islam. Or if we were a Buddhist nation it would all be in their name..etc. etc. etc. Let me suggest to you that you have put the carriage before the horse here. We just happen to be a Christian majority nation. That is as close to blaming Christianity as you can get in this, that we just happen to be!. Your suggestion is yet one more attempt by yourself to bash Christianity, which you clearly do not comprehend.  
 
P.S. The fact is, sk, that a certain sector of impoverished Americans are poor by choice. This sector has no excuse to be poor because they CAN work but have chosen not to. These people must share in the blame for failures that you suggest the federal government takes sole responsibilty for. They have helped drain the system for those who really need and deserve the help, like the elderly and the sick. True, money is taken from here and there to fund the war machine, but that is not the only reason there is a lack of money for the needy....but it is the only reason you care to talk about.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #188 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 2:05am »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 12:44am, StegRock wrote:
So, why don't you two go grab yourselves an American flag and a box of matches and have yourselves a party? Just don't do it here and expect NOT to be called out on the carpet for it. ... Or, JUST DON'T DO IT HERE!!! Just share more "moderate" and/or "specific" thoughts on "this or that" particular issue LIKE, by and large, THOSE THAT WERE BEING SHARED AT THE OUTSET OF THIS THREAD BEFORE JAKE SHOWED UP!!!

 
Though, I would never suggest that you don't voice whatever you have (want) to say here, I was going to suggest that you burn a flag!!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #189 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 2:37am »
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Eh...  I don't know about that, MC...  This thread has "missed" the mark (I set for it)...  Not that nothing has, but I think something much more productive could have been accomplished here if people exerted a little more "restraint" in getting "political".  The original point was to have an unusual, mature discussion about "politics", not get "political".  We know what politicians Jake, e.g., is willing to apologize for and which ones he isn't, which ones he would have voted for (if he went to the poles), and what his past and current political affiliations are.  In the beginning of this thread, by and large, politicians and parties weren't even discussed; we weren't divulging our voting history, and so on.  We were just sharing where we came down on this or that issue.  As almost all of us here are Americans, I was looking to find where the "common ground" is, not spew "political positions and platforms" at each other and become a microcosm of the polarized "politics of the day".  Compared with the posts prior, look at Jake's first post on this thread.  Well,... you can't... because he deleted it... But, I "quoted" it in my post of August 4th, 2004.  First thing he does,... announce his party affiliation...
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #190 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 4:34am »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 12:18am, StegRock wrote:
It's just that even the brightest of US don't even realize the absurd things WE're even saying anymore,... furthermore, in such a natural way that it goes by unnoticed.

 
Something else along these lines and sk's "beef" that struck me lately,... I was watching some show on the Discovery Channel, The History Channel, A&E or something like that examining and, ultimately, debunking claims made in The DaVinci Code.  Anyway,... in this show, one of the "scholars" (and he was, mind you) pointed out how it was strange, given our maxim of separation of Church and State, that we established diplomatic relations with Vatican City. At that point in history, we already had history of diplomacy with countries in the middle east like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Siam (modern-day Thailand), and on and on.  We get so "stuck" in our Americano maxims that basic reasoning skills go out the window.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #191 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 7:28am »
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Quote:
The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence, right?  But,... trust me,... after just 6 months in Nokpon-dong, South Korea, you (two) would be fighting your way back over the fence... (while, ironically, though I surely prefer it on this side, wouldn't need to, but did,... because I "get it").  So, why don't you two go grab yourselves an American flag and a box of matches and have yourselves a party?  Just don't do it here and expect NOT to be called out on the carpet for it.  ...  Or, JUST DON'T DO IT HERE!!!

 
Wow! I want to be very careful here. Very simple. Are you two actually supporting the idea that if I have a different opinion about the direction this country is going or I wish to question the decisions MY leaders are making, then that makes me unamerican? It just seems to me that you guys are simply saying, " If you dont like the way we do things then get out." I come to believe that you are both smarter than that.
 
The problem in this country that scares me the most is that people are scared to voice a negitive opinion. This wasnt so 30 years ago. Its very scary. Right here, right now, I voiced a negitive opinion and you have me burning flags and hopping fences. Purhaps I should clam up and watch the green grass grow. We (our ) leaders foster that trend of keeping quiet.  They tell you they are tracking google. They tell you they tap phone lines. I realize Its for my familys safety, but we must protect the most fundamental value this country has. We must remain an open democratic Society.
 
I attend the Indy 500 every year. This year as thousands were moving towards the speedway there was a muslum middle eastern looking man voicing his displeasure over the iraqi war to a crowd of on lookers. I watched for about 5 minutes while waiting for other members of our party to catch up to the group. In that 5 minutes he was spit on , hit with a half of a beer, and pushed to the ground. All in front of several police officers who did nothing. I didnt hear exactly what he was saying, I was too far away. I do know he was strong in his convictions though.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #192 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 7:53am »
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Your posts here on the politics thread have an obvious anti-Christian slant. At some point in your life "religion" has soured you it seems. If this is so, I can tell you the probable reason for it is that you never personalized it between yourself and God. In all likelyhood you looked at what "man" has done with, and in his faith (or lack thereof), and made a judgment about who Christ is. If you try to determine who He is by watching man, then you are doomed to "miss" Him. The same can be said of most any figurehead you can name that people follow as a religion. People just don't get it...or they get it the way they want to hear it. If you want the truth go straight to the source!  

 
 
 
Where you are right is that I don't have enough faith or religion in my life. Where you are wrong is that I bash the Christian faith because I don't understand it. People think its those without faith that don't want the 10 commandments on the lawns of courthouses. People without faith that don't want prayer in schools. That's not true. People without faith don't really care whether that's there or not. Its people with different faiths that have problems with it. Its people who want to tell you what you should or can believe in who care about those issues. I wasn't bashing the Christian faith at all. I was bashing those that hide behind it.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #193 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 10:33am »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 7:28am, steelkings wrote:

 
Wow! I want to be very careful here. Very simple. Are you two actually supporting the idea that if I have a different opinion about the direction this country is going or I wish to question the decisions MY leaders are making, then that makes me unamerican?

 
I am not suggesting that at all...I am saying that everything out of your mouth about America on this site, has been negative. A bunch of accusations, tyraids, rants, and complaints. The light I see you in sk, is that you are a bitter American who wants to find fault in everything his country does, but not offer a fix. You are quick to blame every problem this country has on the current administation.  I am sure you understand that things were not broken overnight. Do you not know that all of these issues that America is currently struggling with have been around in some form or the other since it's inception? Not every administration has chosen to deal with the problems at hand.
 
Quote:

 Right here, right now, I voiced a negitive opinion and you have me burning flags and hopping fences.

 
Again, your fervant slant against the government has me believing you are capable of doing this. I am not saying that you do not love being an American sk. I'm just saying I have not seen anything in your posts that would suggest that you love it either.
 
 
Quote:

I attend the Indy 500 every year. This year as thousands were moving towards the speedway there was a muslum middle eastern looking man voicing his displeasure over the iraqi war to a crowd of on lookers. I watched for about 5 minutes while waiting for other members of our party to catch up to the group. In that 5 minutes he was spit on , hit with a half of a beer, and pushed to the ground.

 
Though that's an unfortunate event, you gotta wonder what this guy was thinking. You go to a G I A N T annual, uniquely American event, packed full of rednecks   and other passionate types, (not to mention the drinking) and you start spouting off about Iraq?????? Half those Indy fans have fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, and/or friends who are soldiers currently serving their country over there. I'd say he was lucky getting out of there alive. I wonder at what point the redneck who threw his half beer at the guy, realized he just wasted half of his beer on the guy? I'll bet if he had another chance to change his actions he would have put his cigarette in his mouth, held on to his beer with two hands, and gave the guy a good swift kick in the arse instead!!
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #194 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 10:48am »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 2:37am, StegRock wrote:
This thread has "missed" the mark (I set for it)... Not that nothing has, but I think something much more productive could have been accomplished here if people exerted a little more "restraint" in getting "political". The original point was to have an unusual, mature discussion about "politics", not get "political".

 
Good luck with that Steg. If you want to hear what people really have to say with no "holds" barred..then merely mention politics and/or religion.    
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #195 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 4:09pm »
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I am not suggesting that at all...I am saying that everything out of your mouth about America on this site, has been negative. A bunch of accusations, tyraids, rants, and complaints.

 
On flag burning
Quote:
Again, your fervant slant against the government has me believing you are capable of doing this. I am not saying that you do not love being an American sk. I'm just saying I have not seen anything in your posts that would suggest that you love it either.  

 
Thats goofy! Most definatly insulting. So far you have accused me of hating America, god, Pres Bush and christians. Without knowing me you suggested Im capable of burning our flag. Its insulting. Theres nothing inspiring about anything you have written. Its just one insult after anouther.  
 
Sorry about the funny comics I posted. I should have considered the audience I was showing them to. I should have kept in mind the following quote from a different thread.
Quote:
the thing that makes a good "dogging" so funny is that there is always a hint of truth in the comment. Does that sting a bit..?

 
There is a lot about america that is wonderful . Its the best place to be in the world. Too many wonderful things to list. Theres some bad stuff too! Even if I had solutions to some of the bad stuff nobodys listening. Not with an open mind. Not here. In the words of our president who has managed to inspire 32% of the population. Mission accomplished.
 
I surrender
 

 
 
Now on to football
 
 
 
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #196 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 7:55pm »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 10:48am, MordecaiCourage wrote:
Good luck with that Steg. If you want to hear what people really have to say with no "holds" barred..then merely mention politics and/or religion.

 
Well, it had been going quite peacefully with VERY well-thought-out posts and respectful responses...
 
on Jun 14th, 2006, 10:33am, MordecaiCourage wrote:
I am not suggesting that at all...I am saying that everything out of your mouth about America on this site, has been negative. A bunch of accusations, tyraids, rants, and complaints. The light I see you in sk, is that you are a bitter American who wants to find fault in everything his country does, but not offer a fix. You are quick to blame every problem this country has on the current administation. I am sure you understand that things were not broken overnight. Do you not know that all of these issues that America is currently struggling with have been around in some form or the other since it's inception? Not every administration has chosen to deal with the problems at hand.

 
Furthermore, the point of my going international with this is to show that the problems aren't just here they're everywhere, and, in many cases MUCH WORSE elsewhere,... and, my other point, that many of these problems are just a function of the "style" of political system we have, a democratic republic that is. It's not easy being a politician in a liberal democracy where people have been endowed with an extreme version of freedom of speech (that no longer applies (200+ years later), mind you). Yes, there are some bad apples (old Senator McCarthy comes to mind) that need to be dealt with from time to time, but, by and large, our Congress and Executive branch are run by decent people doing a VERY difficult job. You see,... the irony given your "even-handedness" by showing both an anti-Bush and anti-Clinton sentiment,... the difference between you, sk, and me is that, by and large, while you show your "fairness" (in assessment) by bashing them both, I show mine by not bashing either. In fact, on this very thread, I acknowledge, mind you, not in an over-the-top, immature, hate-speech way, where Bush has been in error, and I have not done any Clinton bashing. (As a matter of fact, during the Clinton administration legislation was passed that would never have been by a Republican administration that was very advantageous to me working as an expatriate. I recognize and appreciate that, and, by doing so, gain insight into the inherent duplicity involved in politics, which allows me to "temper" my "temper" about politicians and politics of the day.) VERY unlike Vonnegut... and JYJ, I have a general admiration for our (history of) American presidents, the men who have stepped up to the plate to take on this daunting, to say the least, task and, moreover, a respect for the Office of the Presidency. To not do so,... well,... is at least just a bit,... well,... you call it what you want... While criticisms abound, well-informed, reasonable solutions are few and far between. Why? Because it's difficult,... period. Why do you think companies, generally, don't run this way? Or, better yet, surgeries? Everybody shooting their mouths off as if "freedom of speech" was God. Nurses telling surgeons where to cut. Every employee just as clueless as the last about what it takes to make a successful company telling Bill Gates how to make Microsoft the #1 software company in the world. It would be chaos... like the 60's and 70's, when we took for granted how good we had it, the discipline it took us to get there, and how hard it was being the leader in an ever-expanding modern free world. This was our lowest point as a country. It showed how fickle we were. Yes, maybe you felt more "free to speak" your mind. BUT, is that in and of itself a good thing? It just made for a ton of noise and confusion. Jane Fonda running around acting like the aforementioned mouthy nurse during surgery, emboldening the enemy. I pesonally prefer it when I am in a class or conversation and I am caused to take pause and exert restraint and listen up. That probably means I'm learning something... or at least thinking.
 
I digress... Here's a story along the lines I was discussing about midway through the above paragraph that you will love, MC... There was a BIG fire up at UH yesterday afternoon. The new reported how "professors" were critical about the way the "firemen" were fighting the fire. The "professors" thought that the way the "firemen" were going about it, they were risking spreading the fire. Bottom line, the "firemen" did a) the job and b) a fine job. It's so easy to sit back with your thumb up your ass doing nothing to help get "the job" done and say to others, REPORTERS no less, what should be being done. It's WAY easier than (being in the heat, quite literally here, of the moment and) doing it... when snap decisions need to be made. Needless to say, this is my fight. This is not the kind of professor I will be and, furthermore, this is the kind of mindset I want to contribute to changing/at least chip away at.
 
Anyway, to fold this a bit back into MC's point in a way, "Freedom of Speech" has become God in today's America... when, really, what was meant by it over 200 years ago was freedom of responsible speech. We also have, though not written for time immemorial in the Constitution, but in a much more natural way, the freedom of listening, learning and quietude. Anymore, though, considering the shambles our educational system is in and our general lack of respect for education and TEACHERS in America, with our God, "Freedom of Speech", it seems like we have rather adopted/"copped" an "attitude" upholding our freedom NOT to listen and learn.  A poor educational system, which, mind you, is more a result of our general lack of appreciation for education than "the budget", which is just a result of the former, plus an extreme version of freedom of speech equals... not a good deal, to say the least, and a boisterous one at that!
 
At this point, I think it is worth sharing with you all a very short article of mine that I mentioned to gridiron_legends right here on this very thread. I wrote it back in '98 for the university I was working for at the time in Korea. It was VERY well-received and, in any event, speaks in a general way to the broader issue, the "bigger picture" if you will, underlying much of this discussion...
 


"Freedom or Chaos"
by Steven A. Stegeman

 
  In late years, the American notion of the "melting pot," an important concept to understanding freedom in America, has been undergoing undue scrutiny. Critics perceive a contradiction between a "melting pot" and the "land of the free." In other words, how can the country which boasts of the freedom it grants its citizens espouse conformity? This problem arises because they consider freedom something to which every person has a right. These critics might use a "mosaic" to metaphorically describe a society ideally upholding individual freedom rather than a "melting pot" which suggests blending. This blending, to them, is conformity. It is seen as a compromise of an individual's freedom. This mindset is also present among "otherwise proud" Americans and results in divisions along cultural and ethnic lines and an "I am free to do whatever I want" attitude. Rather than blending under the American ideal, people are becoming increasingly concerned with "the kind of" American they are. By diverting our attention away from responsibility and towards freedom as a right, this anti-"melting pot" mentality is separating us as distinctly as the tiles of a mosaic are divided.
 
  It is evident that the Founding Fathers foresaw this potential danger and used caution with regards to using the word freedom when composing the Declaration of Independence. Therein they state that "We hold these truths self-evident... that they (all men) are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights... Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." There is no mention of "freedom." Liberty, the word most directly related to freedom, is typically defined in terms of "freedom from," not "freedom to;" it is quite clear that "freedom from" is the meaning intended by the authors. They were aware of the limitless philosophical implications of the word "freedom." In Aristotilean ethics, freedom is neither virtue nor vice. The extremes or vices could be labeled on one end "suppression (no freedom)" and on the other "chaos (absolute freedom)" with the base median being "corruption (irresponsible freedom)" and virtue being "liberty (responsible freedom)." They knew that freedom without responsibility is chaos.
 
  The Constitution, which lays out the process by which the unalienable rights of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" are secured, is for the most part written in terms of "freedom (to)." These granted freedoms mold our behavior. Freedom is not an end in itself. It is the means. American freedom is not about people doing whatever they want. We do have a system of values, norms, etc., which grow out of The Constitution and are based on the freedom of individual expression or the free unfolding of the individual. It is the way of freedom which binds us, and a paradigm which does not promote the free development of the individual betrays the fundamental idea underscoring freedom in America.
 


I expect JYJ's "response" to again be,... if anything,... "Steg, great post (obviously sarcastic as it is belied by what comes next), as usual, lots of words (which, mind you, I didn't even read, no less "take in"), but unable to refute any of my points (because I can only process hair-splitting point-by-point counter-examples, which I'm not going to really hear out anyway, and, moreover, do not "get" how your posts respond to mine or anything here in the overarching way they do)."
 
Also, in closing, I think, given how I see myself being perceived in this discussion, at least by some, that it is incidentally worth noting that I have a degree in political science. It was one of my three undergraduate majors. I had a minor in history as well. Again, I am NOT at all one to flout degrees, per se. Yuck! I'm just throwing this out there to contextualize things. I think some of you, like JYJ, see me just as some "far-out" (wanna-be) philosopher.
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #197 on: Jun 14th, 2006, 10:47pm »
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on Jun 14th, 2006, 4:09pm, steelkings wrote:

 
On flag burning
 
Thats goofy! Most definatly insulting. So far you have accused me of hating America, god, Pres Bush and christians. Without knowing me you suggested Im capable of burning our flag. Its insulting. Theres nothing inspiring about anything you have written. Its just one insult after anouther.

 
You are right sk, it was very insulting of me to suggest you were capable of flag burning. I took that bit just a little far I guess. However, you have posted as I've suggested thus far..only in a negative manner on those subjects, leaving one to wonder just where you stand. Now, read this carefully sk. Respond to it or not, that is up to you. I will not bring up the subject again...you may have the last word on it and I will not give a rebuttal. I do apologize for saying it, but not because it is not an accurate assessment given the tone of every single post you have had on the subject matter, but because I do not know you personally and for that I'm sorry.

Quote:

There is a lot about america that is wonderful . Its the best place to be in the world. Too many wonderful things to list.

 
I wish you would have just stated something positive like this at some point in your political posts...so old MC wouldn't have had to insult you!
 
Quote:

I surrender

 
Save that for the GBRFL2 if you get there!
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2006, 10:53pm by MordecaiCourage » Logged
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #198 on: Jun 15th, 2006, 7:48am »
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on Jun 13th, 2006, 8:20pm, MordecaiCourage wrote:
By chill out do you mean silence my opinion?

 
No, that is absolutely not what I was saying.  I was  suggesting that you should back off your pretty strong dogmatic accusation that SteelKings was 'insulting Christianity and that he would face certain doom for his insidious transgression'.  (Maybe if he sends $1,000 to your cable-access 'ministry' he will be forgiven?).  I'm a Christian too, and I was not at all insulted by the cartoons, and I don't think SteelKings deserved to be personally attacked for posting them.  
 
On a side note, I personally feel that something like the DaVinci Code is blasphemous (this is not to say I advocate censorship in any form, this is just my personal feeling), and have absolutely no interest in seeing a movie like that.   But if someone wants to make fun of the Pope or the Roman Catholic church (my particular affiliation) in a thougtful,clever and relevant way, I'll buy the drinks.
 
on Jun 14th, 2006, 7:55pm, StegRock wrote:

 
... when, really, what was meant by it over 200 years ago was freedom of responsible speech.

 
 
Generally true, but your notion of 'responsible' speech is starting to sound a little bizarre, and ironically very much unAmerican... criticism of the government, the ability to protest the acts of government, freedom to express dissent with public policy and publicly-elected officials are THE fundamental freedoms that were contemplated by the Founding Fathers as the central tenet of 1st amendment freedom of speech.
 
So, to make this perfectly clear, criticism of government policy and public officials is not only very responsible behavior, but one of our most important American traditions.  Moreover, the symbolic expression of political dissent, such as Flag-burning, is completely protected by the 1st amendment.
 
'Irresponsible', or speech not Constitutionally protected is largely limited to 'fighting words', defamation, and obscenity.  
 
'Fighting words' - the speaker conveys a message with the intention of provoking lawlessness, and there is a genuine likelhood that this result will occur.  This unprotected category hasn't been successfully used in a 1st amendment case since 1951.
 
Defamation - More complicated, but if it involves a public figure, the public figure must prove that a false statement was made with actual malice. (Actual malice= reckless regard for the truth).
 
Obscenity - If the average person applying contemporay community standards can find that the speech, taken as a whole, appeals to the pruient interest. (Patently offensive sexual themes with no serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value).
 
Hate-speech is a new invention that is absolutely distinquishable from political expression. Unprotected 'Hate-speech' is a very narrow category.  Generally, to constitute unprotected speech, it must be used to intimidate or threaten an identifible minority.
 
You may find surprising that even symbolic expression, such as cross-burning, has been found to be protected under the 1st amendment, if it is found to be 'content-based'.   For example, a state cannot single out the expression of a particular viewpoint for punishment, even if that viewpoint is something ridiculously stupid like insulting someone because of race.
 
So Steg, if you feel an urge to call Senator McCarthy a 'flying dung-clump, stupid son-of-a-prick, whistling-weasal-ass-hat, pig-licker', go for it !  It's completely patriotic.  
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Re: G.T.K.Y.G. - Topic: Politics
« Reply #199 on: Jun 15th, 2006, 5:19pm »
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on Jun 15th, 2006, 7:48am, junkyardjake wrote:

 
No, that is absolutely not what I was saying. I was suggesting that you should back off your pretty strong dogmatic accusation that SteelKings was 'insulting Christianity and that he would face certain doom for his insidious transgression'. (Maybe if he sends $1,000 to your cable-access 'ministry' he will be forgiven?). I'm a Christian too, and I was not at all insulted by the cartoons, and I don't think SteelKings deserved to be personally attacked for posting them.

 
Jake..why do you feel the need to always defend sk? He defends himself quite well, and honestly tries to figure out where and how he offends. While I do not agree with him at times, I do see him as honest. While your posts in his defense are always crap! True, I said and I still feel, insulted by that particular post. NOWHERE in my post did I ever suggest he would face certain doom for anything. You just bold faced lied about that! "Send $1000 to my cable-access ministry for forgiveness"??? Are you high? Where did that come from? I'll tell you where it came from...right out of your lying heart, via your lying lips!! You saying that you are a Christian in one part of the sentence and then lie in your very next breath...Jake this is...no wait...YOU are absurd! I have apologized to sk for my personal assumption of his character in my previous post. I think you should apologize to him, not for speaking on his behalf, but for speaking on his behalf using a big fat lie ! SK's post have bothered me but not angered me. Your post has pissed me off jake, because you are a liar.  
 
Hey if your quick enough Jake, maybe you can delete your post to cover the fact that you've been caught in a lie.
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