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        Featured Leagues >> GBRFL >>  Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
        
(Message started by: StegRock on Sep 4^th, 2003, 8:45pm)

Title: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 4^th, 2003, 8:45pm

Guys,

Remember at this year's "Summer Meeting & Draft" we discussed the idea of allowing teams, on weeks when they have a bonus game, to put in different starting lineups for their two games. The point was that a) based on the strengths and weaknesses of each of your opponent's rosters, you may want to play one set of players against one team while another set against the other, b) sometimes you are torn between a couple players and the implementation of this system would allow you to split your decision and play both guys, one against one team, one against the other, a cool, innovative option and, ultimately, c) all of this would further reward team depth, which is a good thing. In any case, the idea was VERY well-received at the meeting and I really want you guys to remain cognitive of it throughout this season so we can draw an educated conclusion on it at the end of the season.

So, guys, both GBRFLers and GBRFL2ers, feel free to chronicle your thoughts on this issue (as they progress) throughout the season right here on this thread. I look forward to reading your comments and questions! [smiley=bow.gif]

Be in touch! I am...

...Sincerely,
Steve Steg [smiley=smileytrash.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by PrimeTime on Sep 4^th, 2003, 9:07pm

I like the idea :)

Since you are playing two games, you should be able to have two lineups. Is this comething we can implement this year or should we wait until next year?

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 4^th, 2003, 9:27pm

No, it is not something we can implement this year. That is not how decisions are made in the GBRFL!

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by BarnabyWilde on Sep 4^th, 2003, 10:53pm

I REALLY like this idea. I am all for it for next year. [smiley=bullseye.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Sep 5^th, 2003, 12:01am

I have no objections to this idea... is this something that can be implemented easily without an overhaul of the current lineup submission method?

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 5^th, 2003, 12:27am

Na... I mean I would want to tailor-make the lineup submission page more exactly in the long-run, hell, I want to make improvements in it in general, but, regardless of that, there would be ways of indicating your "two" lineups on the submission page as it is by making comments and using slashes and dashes and such.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Sep 5^th, 2003, 8:54am

on 09/05/03 at 00:27:05, StegRock wrote:

Cool... If you are updating the lineup submission page (and this should be an easy one to do)... Can you put starters on one line and backups on another, or signify their status with the field name somehow? When you play in more than one league, it is difficult to remember how many starters each league has...

Also, we GBRFL2ers may be part of the "Your a Peon League," but we seem to be the only ones interested in league issues. Where are all of these high-and-mighty GBRFLers weighing in with their opinions? ;)

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DirkDiggler on Sep 5^th, 2003, 12:45pm

on 09/05/03 at 08:54:59, Philly wrote:

These high and mighty GBRFLers are smart enough to figure out which of our players are starting and which are not. We know how many starters there are. We don't need no stinkin' line telling us which are starters. Besides, your 4th guy may become a starter if any of the top 3 don't start. That is why you basically list your entire roster every week.

As far as why we are not chiming in.....

because we read the post:

Quote:

So, guys, both GBRFLers and GBRFL2ers, feel free to chronicle your thoughts on this issue (as they progress) throughout the season right here on this thread. I look forward to reading your comments and questions!

We just talked about it at our draft. AS the season progresses, we will chime in.....

But now that I am posting, I will go ahead and tell you how I feel. I don't like it. I am always going to put my best team on the field no matter what the match up is. I just think it is creating work where work doesn't need to be created. I like having to live by your decisions. One line up for both games is my personal opinion.

Thanks and have a great day!

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DB on Sep 5^th, 2003, 2:51pm

Wow. [smiley=lickinmychops.gif]. I like the inter league trash talk. We should get bonus games against these guys [smiley=newbie.gif] for some easy wins.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Sep 5^th, 2003, 4:28pm

on 09/05/03 at 14:51:36, DB wrote:

Wow. [smiley=lickinmychops.gif]. I like the inter league trash talk. We should get bonus games against these guys [smiley=newbie.gif] for some easy wins.

Looking at your roster, I certainly wouldn't mind a bonus game against you. You must really like those Redskin WRs! Even former 'Skin Derrius Thompson? Too bad I'm not in your league or I'd acquire Art Monk and Gary Clark and trade them to you. ;) [smiley=redskin.gif]

Although I must admit that Cowboy RB ensemble of Troy Hambrick and Aveion Cason (and, hell, let's include Emmitt Smith for good measure too) has me a bit scared.

[smiley=hellyeafunny.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DB on Sep 5^th, 2003, 6:21pm

[smiley=Uwent2far.gif]Now now big fella [smiley=arguing.gif], no need to get defensive ... or personal for that matter. [smiley=boxer.gif]. If sure you have better things to do besides looking at my little ole roster.

I guess I would be defensive too if my favorite team had not made the Super Bowl in about 20-25 years, while NFC East teams like the Redskins (my team), Dallas and NY have each won at least 2 in that time. If I were you I would be having constant nightmares about Art Monk and Emmitt Smith, etc. too! [smiley=whistle.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 5^th, 2003, 7:41pm

on 09/05/03 at 08:54:59, Philly wrote:

Also, we GBRFL2ers may be part of the "Your a Peon League," but we seem to be the only ones interested in league issues. Where are all of these high-and-mighty GBRFLers weighing in with their opinions? ;)

With all "due" respect to our eager GBRFL newbies [smiley=newbie.gif] [smiley=newbie.gif] here, to glibly come in here and say that "we seem to be the only ones interested in league issues" is just a bit presumptous. [smiley=nono.gif] Have a little respect! Ultimately, the roots of the GBRFL do not lie on the internet and seven of the GBRFL guys seldom visit the forum and five of those seven VERY rarely come around. That does not mean that they don't care. That is FAR from the truth... very far! We dealt with this quite thoroughly at our "Summer Meeting" on August 2nd and most of us are in frequent contact with each other (and them with me) by phone, during which time we discuss ALL kinds of GBRFL "goodies". Hell, this wonderful system we have today is a result of these guys' hammering it out over the past 11 years. Have a little respect! At this point in time, all we have to deal with are fun innovations and very small nuances of the game. The BASICS/FOUNDATIONS have been hammered out with much care and consideration by these guys. Not to mention, as Steve (DD) astutely pointed out, [smiley=bow.gif] the point of this was to get you guys "feeling (out)", "thinking through", "experiencing" and "grokking" the system, not "rushing to judgement", something I see done in and often ruining way too many on-line leagues. In the GBRFL, we patiently go about "evolving" the rules. Depending on the issue, some decisions are even made the offseason TWO prior to the season they are to be implemented. Here, though, many of the GBRFL2ers are, in effect, giving their "votes" without even having played one game in the GBRFL system, no less a season. "Experience" it first, fellas! [smiley=zenmaster.gif] That's what I am ultimately wanting... decisions to be made in a genuinely educated manner. Don't get me wrong! After pondering this particular issue throughout the '02 season with due diligence, I think it would be a great step to take. Now, I want to see what you all, GBRFLers and GBRFL2ers included, think AFTER having pondered it for a full season... as you put in your lineups, watch the games, see the results, get some transactions under your belts, come to understand the system, etc., etc. At this point, we are just to discuss those impressions and share our thoughts BOTH here and "elsewhere" and a vote will be taken in due time... next offseason (as this is an issue that can be decided the offseason immediately prior to the season of its implementation). Again, I am NOT looking to quell you GBRFL2ers' enthusiasm. Just have patience! [smiley=zenmaster.gif] What I am looking for/forward to is hearing YOU ALL out THROUGHOUT the season and ALL of OUR "coming together" on this. [smiley=bow.gif] Ohmmmm! Ohmmmm! ;D

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Sep 5^th, 2003, 11:14pm

on 09/05/03 at 19:41:24, StegRock wrote:

I was just taking a little shot at those who might have dubbed us GBRFL newbies as peons. There was certainly no personal disrespect intended, as I was just having a little fun.

If the offended parties would take the time to more thoroughly read the post instead of reacting too hastily, they might notice the smiley I closed the post with, the one "winking" to indicate sarcasm. Maybe then no feathers would be ruffled and we could continue to participate in a little fun "interleague trash talk" as DB so observantly stated it.

I don't mind being called a peon because I know it was meant in jest. But to say that any retorts to such banter is paramount to disrespect is a bit presumptuous in and of itself.

One of the things I enjoy most about fantasy football is the trash-talking, whether my team is atop the standings or wallowing in the basement. I think many others enjoy this time-honored tradition as well. If any others would like to join in and throw some barbs my way, feel free... [smiley=boxer.gif] I can take it as well as I dish it out. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by PrimeTime on Sep 5^th, 2003, 11:53pm

on 09/05/03 at 14:51:36, DB wrote:

Wow. [smiley=lickinmychops.gif]. I like the inter league trash talk. We should get bonus games against these guys [smiley=newbie.gif] for some easy wins.

This is a great idea! It would be like the interleague games between the National League and American League.

While it would be a little weird in that the two teams playing each other could have some of the same players, it would still be "fair" in the sense that each league has the same number of players and the same number of teams.

Stego, can we add this to the in-season and off-season discussion list of things we want to feel out, think through, experience and grok (?) ?

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 6^th, 2003, 12:37am

Primer, I don't think that is a consideration for quite a few years to come. THAT'S A HUGE CHANGE! I think a reasonable first step would actually be to bring the NFL (GBRFL) and the AFL (GBRFL2) together and perhaps have, JUST FOR FUN, a Super-Duper Bowl between the two top teams of the two leagues. That could provide us with a lot of suspense as I would envision its being a third bonus game the final week of the season between the two top teams, which also would be decided that same week. But, even that I see as being a bit down the road. Let me put it this way... Remember the GBRFL is ultimately a "homegrown" league, made up primarily of guys from school, the fraternity, co-workers, etc. etc.; all the guys from Virginia on up through New Jersey get together every year for our draft and so on. If you yourself play in such a "hometown" league, think of how what you're proposing might sound to them. They'd be like... "What the fuck you doin' with our league, man?" I just don't want this ultimately nice, joyful thing that I am going out of my way to provide to mutate into something it wasn't intended to be, at least not so quickly, and then have my guys, personal friends of mine, complaining to me about what the hell is going on and what the hell I am exposing their cool, little homespun league to, when ultimately, though I informed them about it, I did all of this without ANY of their consultation as initially this was just an independent venture done in connection with "the Gridiron". You kind of followin' whence I am coming...? [smiley=shrug.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Art Vandalay on Sep 7^th, 2003, 9:30am

Jesus!! It never stops coming from Steve "Joan of Arc" Stegeman.
::) Blah Blah.. I do this out of the goodness of my heart.
::)Blah Blah..you guys should worship the ground I walk on.
::)Blah Blah.. I'm the champion (145 for those of counting).
;)Just kidding man, (can you feel the love) just thought I'd warm you up first before making a request.
First of all, I could vote either way for the two lineup deal, but first, could you change the lineup submission so if you have a change in your lineup, you don't have to enter the whole friggin thing over again? That would be helpfull. Especially if you have to submit two of them.
Second of all, I like the idea of inter-league play, but that has to come with a two division split within each league with playoffs and one championship game between the leagues. :o

Yehaaa!! Go "Team to be named later"

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 7^th, 2003, 1:29pm

on 09/07/03 at 09:30:28, Art Vandalay wrote:

...could you change the lineup submission so if you have a change in your lineup, you don't have to enter the whole friggin thing over again? That would be helpfull. Especially if you have to submit two of them.

Regarding this, I have heard this now twice. Ultimately, if we do the "two-lineup" thing, the page will (have to) eventually undergo a BIG overhaul,... of course. It might (have to) happen in a few stages, though, but it will (have to) happen. HOWEVER, for the time being, to make it so you don't always have to (laboriously ::) ) be typing in your whole lineup (which really isn't that big of a deal actually as we are all contemplating things as we input it, anyway, but...), you can on your own go into your "Internet Options" and in the "Advanced Settings" "turn on", i.e. check-mark, "Use On-line Auto Complete". This way you can double-click on any input field and it will give you everything you have ever input into it in a "drop-down menu" format; also, after you start typing something, it will give you that same drop-down menu with everything you've input with those letters. Actually, way back I was working on doing something with the page so you guys wouldn't have to input everything every time, but, ultimately, realized that was going to be a VERY BIG job, and when I found out about this feature, realized it was even a less necessary step to make. So, give it a try, guys! Thank you! [smiley=bow.gif]

on 09/07/03 at 09:30:28, Art Vandalay wrote:

::)Blah Blah.. I'm the champion (145 for those of counting).

I can see you're still a bit bitter about my beginning the defense of my (THIRD) Championship here today, Fresca. [smiley=tonguin.gif] Not like you were in contention anyway! [smiley=pullleeeeeeeze.gif] Anyway, get used to it, bitch! I'm gonna' make it two in a row with the Priest startin' me off with a 24-yard TD run already! Whores,... don't get me goin'! [smiley=hooters.gif][smiley=titflash.gif][smiley=mywhippinboy.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by bgsgfan on Sep 15^th, 2003, 12:05pm

on 09/05/03 at 18:21:41, DB wrote:

If you really want a laugh, check out how Philly did the first week. [smiley=rollinwithlaughter.gif]

As Steggie knows, I love the idea of a "Super Bowl". However, one of the best arguments against even looking at one this year is that the GBRFL has had time to develop, while us 2ers have just had our stocking draft. After a few years allow me to build a dynasty I will be itching for it. ;D

Going back to the original purpose of this thread, I am curious about what arguments can be (have been) made against the flex lineup other than the administrative problems?

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DB on Sep 15^th, 2003, 1:02pm

Well, the argument is:

Quote:

I will go ahead and tell you how I feel. I don't like it. I am always going to put my best team on the field no matter what the match up is. I just think it is creating work where work doesn't need to be created. I like having to live by your decisions. One line up for both games is my personal opinion.

Additionally, it will change the game alot, arguable for the worse. It may give certain teams an unfair advantage after we have drafted. Also, people may change their draft strategy to include a better back-up defense (for example) or any number of positions. I don't think changes in strategy are necessarily bad, particularly where it may reward depth, but they are changes nevertheless. An argument could be made that things should not be complicated where they shouldn't be and that this type of change is overkill to a system that works.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Sep 15^th, 2003, 9:23pm

Having given it a little bit of thought, I really have no interest in submitting separate lineups for two separate games.

While I can see the strategic angle involved in playing a completion percentage against your opponent's yardage totals, or going for number of receptions instead of receiving TDs or whatever, I don't think it is necessary.

I put my best (insert chuckle here) lineup together and go with that regardless of the opponent. I think you'll find very few people will actually submit different lineups and it probably isn't worth the additional work that will be required, even if it isn't that much additional work.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 1^st, 2003, 7:42pm

My fellow GBRFLers and GBRFL2ers,

I don't know if you guys have been thinking about this for the past 13 weeks or not, but I know that this thread has not really gone the way I had hoped, including on my part. [smiley=awwgee.gif]

In any event, this week this turned out to be a particularly poignant "factor" to me..., not so much in the sense of having the option to adjust your lineup to your competitors', but more so in the sense of being REALLY torn between two players and having the option to hedge your bets. This week I was TOTALLY torn between playing Chris Chambers and Jerry Rice. Having to choose one, I went with Rice (based on what I perceived to be a favorable matchup). Had I had the option this week, I would have played Rice in one game and Chambers in the other (and, actually, it probably would not have mattered in the outcomes as I think I would have played Rice, anyway, in the game I am going to lose and Chambers in the game I think I am going to win). BUT, don't let this parenthetical mitigate the value of my argument. Besides winning and losing, especially in the GBRFL I would like to think, there is an "entertainment"/"amusement" aspect to things that should be considered, i.e., I do not want aspects of the system that are perhaps more about just the sheer enjoyment of the hobby and not about the mundane nuts and bolts of the rules/guidelines to be tacitly ignored. It's "ALL important" in the bigger picture. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to cheer for one more player (moreover, on Thanksgiving day) and enjoy his success as it was happening despite the "after-the-fact" outcome (of losing). This is SURELY a week I would have liked to have had and enjoyed this option.

Food for thought...

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Chumpzilla on Dec 1^st, 2003, 8:38pm

I like this idea a lot. I've faced the exact dilemma that has been referred to in previous posts. I may have started different players depending on the matchups if given the opportunity.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DirkDiggler on Dec 1^st, 2003, 9:30pm

I like NOT having the option to hedge your bets. I like putting in the best players you have for the week and having to live by your decisions. There have been many a week I have played the wrong guy. Ultimately I am bitter about this, but I live with the decision I made. What makes me appreciate this more is looking at other guys do the same thing. I get a warped sense of amusement when my opponet (or anyone else for that matter) has a player on the bench who has 100 plus yards rushing and receiving.

Anyways, I like it like it is and say don't mess with a good thing.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Philly on Dec 1^st, 2003, 9:34pm

I would have faced this issue this past weekend as well. At QB I started Manning and needed one more starter. I almost put Fiedler, but was worried about him against the Dallas defense. I went ahead and put David Carr (against a pathetic Falcons defense) in as the #2 QB, figuring that if Carr didn't play, then there would be no harm in having Fiedler as my #3.

With 2 different lineups, I most likely would have submitted different QB lineups for each game.

All that said, I think we should NOT do more than one lineup each week. Fantasy football shouldn't be about hedging your bets. Moreover, unless the scoring system can somehow become more automated, then an extra lineup is just additional work for those who are doing that work. My vote is no.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 1^st, 2003, 9:42pm

Make no mistakes... You still have to live with your decisions. Let's not misconstrue this. Let's say I, (as per my example above) in actuality, was leaning toward Chambers, surely a possibility, but wasn't 100% sure and decided to play Rice in one game. The "result" of that would have been terribly negative for me (and allegedly amusing for Steve). Point being, you still have to live with your decisions and you can still be amused by guys' leaving great players on their bench (which is only a passive amusement, anyway, though). It will still happen. I just look at this as an "option" issue. Do we want to give guys this extra option or not? I see it as allowing us to "make more of our (deep) rosters" than how it currently is.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by PrimeTime on Dec 1^st, 2003, 11:39pm

I think this is a good idea.

My reason is as follows: If you do not want to submit two lineups you can just submit one. If you want to submit two because you are not capable of making a decision, then you can submit two. It seems to work for everyone.

As Steve mentioned above, you will still have to live with your choices. If you put player A in one line up and player B in another and Player A has a big week then you will have screwed yourself by starting Player B (Assuming, of course, the Player B did not also have a big week).

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Tony_O on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 11:19am

To be blunt, I would vote no for giving "us" more options. I agree with the argument of making a decision and sticking with it. I also don't like the idea of hedging our bets. If "we" want to take advantage of "our" deep rosters, we should add a position(Flex Maybe) to the starting line-ups. I am not asking to add the postion, I am just merely stating another option that provides the same results without the complication of submitting another line-up. It also would provide some additional strategic planning because you would have to guess whether your opponents would start a RB or a RC.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 1:29pm

on 12/02/03 at 11:19:54, Tony_O wrote:

I agree with the argument of making a decision and sticking with it.

But, there is no "argument" there. You still have to make a decision and stick with it. It's just a different decision. This (argument/position) really doesn't carry any weight, logically.

Quote:

To be blunt, I would vote no for giving "us" more options. ... I also don't like the idea of hedging our bets. If "we" want to take advantage of "our" deep rosters, we should add a position(Flex Maybe) to the starting line-ups. I am not asking to add the postion, I am just merely stating another option that provides the same results without the complication of submitting another line-up. It also would provide some additional strategic planning because you would have to guess whether your opponents would start a RB or a RC.

Don't like hedging bets,... but let's add another flex position that provides the same results?!?! ?.?.? Now, it's not this proposal; it's another kind of solution,... which actually doesn't work at all in this kind of system if you think it through. You have to have the same number of players going against each other at each position. You can't really make it so you have 4 receivers going up against 3 receivers or 4 running backs going up against 3. That would not be a good system. In the GBRFL, roto-style set-up, a "flex" position is inherently not really an option.

...

Lastly, I don't know what is up with all the quotation marks around "us" and "we" and "our". The (indignant) "insinuation" doesn't give me a good feeling, though. Try to not lose sight of the fact that this is a TOTAL FREEBIE for you all that's just additional work for me and a couple others who kindly volunteer their assistance. Also, remember that the GBRFL is a league of locals, so to speak, a core of 8 friends and friends of friends (like the QFL, e.g.), and that you have just been invited to participate in "our" system of play at no cost or extra effort to you. This is a situation where, like it or lump it, for the first number of years, like perhaps five, the rules are going to come down "from above", so to speak, and that is actually for the better of both leagues. People have to show some sort of "long-term" commitment and "experience" the system to the point of "grokking" it before being involved in the decision-making process. Otherwise, we will be undoing knots all day long. "Getting it" first is key to a high-quality decision-making process as is quite poignantly exemplified by the not completely thought-through proposal of a flex position (think about how the QFL guys would react if a bunch of "Johnny come lately's" barged in with rule change proposals without first really totally understanding the IDP system... I, for one, would expect to have to humbly sit back for a few years before even thinking about opening my mouth, other than to ask questions and learn). Nevertheless, I would still like to hear out all who are "concerned"/whom this "concerns". ALL of your takes will surely be considered,... accordingly, when a vote is taken on this. If you want to break off and make your own league and make your own rules and run it, go for it. But, don't lay that at my doorstep just because I was kind enough to extend this courtesy of a league.

Now, Tony, if nothing was meant by those quotation marks, if no "message" was being sent, just (everybody) take what I wrote above as "in general" and if you wouldn't mind, feel free to disabuse me of my notion and tell me what you really were wanting to indicate.

Peace out! [smiley=hippy.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Tony_O on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 5:25pm

Well, take one last breath of air from that pirch your on and come back down here with the rest of us! [smiley=flipa.gif] The quotations represented the orginal GBRFLers. Like the way you used it!

on 12/02/03 at 13:29:43, StegRock wrote:

Also, remember that the GBRFL is a league of locals, so to speak, a core of 8 friends and friends of friends (like the QFL, e.g.), and that you have just been invited to participate in "our" system of play at no cost or extra effort to you.

I being one of the "peons" was merely trying to type and use the right words, but I didn't want the words to represent myself or my GBRFL2 brothers. I was just making a suggestion(like you asked for) and in this situation(not in all and YOU need to be aware of that) are correct. I didn't think it all the way through and it would not be fair or logical to use a flex position in this league. That being said WE get it that you do the stats and it creates more work for you, not us. However, some people would see it as more work to research and submit 2 lineups. Obviously, not a lot of work, but more.

on 09/07/03 at 09:30:28, Art Vandalay wrote:

Jesus!! It never stops coming from Steve "Joan of Arc" Stegeman.
::) Blah Blah.. I do this out of the goodness of my heart.
::)Blah Blah..you guys should worship the ground I walk on.

It seems like even one of your "Local" guys gets tired of your condesending tyraids as well!

Lastly, I would like you to remember that "I"(Tony) am a MAN(Not KJ a 18 year old boy) and I would expect you to talk to me like one or "WE"(You and I) will have problems. I know this is only a website forum, but your words still have weight and there is no way in hell you would talk to me that way in person. You might say you would talk to me that way, but after about 10 or 20 words the blood from your lips, nose and gums might change the way you deliver your message.

That has been building! :-X Now that I got that off my chest, I feel better. ;D

I have no hard feelings against you Steg! For this or with whats going on with the QFL. I was just giving my opinion and I was at work and didn't throughly think through my suggestion. That was my fault and I apoligize. In the future, I will thoughtfully and respectively think through my suggestions for the GBRFL!

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Art Vandalay on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 7:26pm

Whoa!! What up with Tony "Real Deal" O? [smiley=evil.gif]

I wouldn't mess with Steve. He's a zen master [smiley=zenmaster.gif] and can do the Keanu Reeves kung-fu stuff [smiley=pumped.gif]. Or is it Christopher Reeve in the wheel chair stuff , Or is it Dan Reeves and that Zocor Viagra stuff. Either way, not cool threatening physical violence, even in jest dude.

Also not cool taking my statements out of context. Steve can be frustrating at times but he means well. :D

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by Tony_O on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 8:58pm

on 12/02/03 at 19:26:22, Art Vandalay wrote:

Either way, not cool threatening physical violence, even in jest dude.

I agree and I apoligize for going there! I wasn't trying to threaten Steggie, I was just trying to make a point. That point was I didn't like being talked or written to that way and if someone thought they could talk to me that way to my face then I would enlighten them and clarify our situation. I am over it though. It was a knee jerk reaction.

on 12/02/03 at 19:26:22, Art Vandalay wrote:

Also not cool taking my statements out of context.

I'm sorry but your words must have come from some of your experiences with Steve. I was just trying to show him that maybe I wasn't the only person who feels that he goes a little overboard every now and then(rarely).

on 12/02/03 at 19:26:22, Art Vandalay wrote:

Steve can be frustrating at times but he means well. :D

I Totally agree with you on this one. He produces and regulates an excellent website. Your league set-up is also VERY fun, interesting, creative, and original. I am truely enjoying my journey towards the 2003-2004 GBRFL2 Championship. ;D

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 2^nd, 2003, 9:11pm

Just clarifying...

These words are out of context:

on 09/07/03 at 09:30:28, Art Vandalay wrote:

Jesus!! It never stops coming from Steve "Joan of Arc" Stegeman.
::) Blah Blah.. I do this out of the goodness of my heart.
::)Blah Blah..you guys should worship the ground I walk on.

These words are in context:

on 12/02/03 at 19:26:22, Art Vandalay wrote:

Steve can be frustrating at times but he means well. :D

Sincerely,
Christopher Reeves [smiley=broncofan.gif] ... [smiley=doh.gif] ... [smiley=silence.gif]

[smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=hellyeafunny.gif] [smiley=LMFAO.gif] [smiley=rollinwithlaughter.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by DOLFAN on Dec 3^rd, 2003, 11:42am

Hmmm [smiley=hmmmm.gif] , did i miss something? [smiley=shrug.gif]
I thought i went to a Hockey game and a fight brought out...or is it I went to a fight and a Hockey game broke out. Whatever .. [smiley=builder.gif].. I really thought I was [smiley=strollin.gif] Da GRID!!!
Either way I am certainly getting my $ worth here. HEY YO, I'll take 2 dogs and 2 more beers for round 2. [smiley=onit.gif]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Hmmm, what was that again? Oh that's right. 2 lineup thingy, right. Well, it does need further discussion. I am leaning towards keeping it the way it is. I may have used it once or 2X this year. Currently I like it the way it is. Today my vote is no. At yrs end I will review those weeks I discussed. I know that in 1 week it would not have changed the outcome. The other week it may have.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by BarnabyWilde on Dec 7^th, 2003, 1:56pm

After reading some of these posts, a question comes to my mind:

Why ask the opinions of the GBRFL2 guys if our opinion doesn't count? If only the original GBRFlers get to make the decision, why even ask us secondary stepchildren?

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 7^th, 2003, 3:05pm

Because you are involved, and, thus, have some degree of insight worth, at least, hearing out. Fraternity order for example, the opinions of pledges are heard out and considered in further discussion by the brothers, but they surely don't get a vote. They've got to prove themselves first. What's going on here is like a pledgeship, I suppose. Another example, I listen to my wife's opinion about U.S. politics, but she is not a U.S. citizen and, thus, has no vote, but that doesn't mean her opinions don't matter at all. They're still worth hearing out. Anyway, I think I present the position fairly clearly when I stated:

Quote:

Try to not lose sight of the fact that this is a TOTAL FREEBIE for you all that's just additional work for me and a couple others who kindly volunteer their assistance. Also, remember that the GBRFL is a league of locals, so to speak, a core of 8 friends and friends of friends (like the QFL, e.g.), and that you have just been invited to participate in "our" system of play at no cost or extra effort to you. This is a situation where, like it or lump it, for the first number of years, like perhaps five, the rules are going to come down "from above", so to speak, and that is actually for the better of both leagues. People have to show some sort of "long-term" commitment and "experience" the system to the point of "grokking" it before being involved in the decision-making process. Otherwise, we will be undoing knots all day long. "Getting it" first is key to a high-quality decision-making process as is quite poignantly exemplified by the not completely thought-through proposal of a flex position (think about how the QFL guys would react if a bunch of "Johnny come lately's" barged in with rule change proposals without first really totally understanding the IDP system... I, for one, would expect to have to humbly sit back for a few years before even thinking about opening my mouth, other than to ask questions and learn). Nevertheless, I would still like to hear out all who are "concerned"/whom this "concerns". ALL of your takes will surely be considered,... accordingly, when a vote is taken on this. If you want to break off and make your own league and make your own rules and run it, go for it.

In any event, you don't have to give your opinion. The GBRFL2 is a privilege, not a right. As Americans, we often lose site of the fact that "in reality" not all opinions are equal AND everything is not about one's rights.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 7^th, 2003, 4:53pm

If you will, GBRFL2ers, think of this process as that of a suggestion box.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 8^th, 2003, 2:12pm

There is something that I wrote here that has been misconstrued by at least one to my knowledge and two to my suspicion, and has, thus, fanned, if not downright fueled, some "fires". I would like to disabuse this before it gets twisted any further. Here is what I more precisely meant...

If I were NOT asked, "I, for one, would expect to have to humbly sit back for a few years before even thinking about opening my mouth, other than to ask questions and learn." If I were asked, I would do my homework to a point where I felt I "got it" to a "reasonable" degree and then I'd give my take on, my belief on, my thoughts on, my perception of the issue. I would NOT ask a question such as the one three posts above, which, if thought through, is unanswerable and frustrating at best, causes hard feelings and acrimony at worst, and then, moreover, stand strong in asserting its validity. It's not your "opinion" (I hate (the overusage of) that word) that doesn't count at all; it is just that you have no vote (YET) in this venue (something I made abundantly clear from the get-go).

But, first, I digress... The guidelines by which the GBRFL2 would be run, including with regards to the issue of the GBRFL2ers' not being permitted to vote in the early years (I think that is exactly how I originally put it, actually), were made clear from the get-go. If you did not know that, that's not my fault. This is not something I am pulling out of my hat now. I am actually giving you guys some voice when the understanding was that the GBRFL2ers would have NO "official" voice for the first number of years. I do NOT want to be made to pay for that, moreover, when the reason I am/would be paying for that has little to nothing to do with the issue at hand here on this thread.

Now, back to that question from above... Let's think it and its validity through. What are the possible "answers"? A truly "valid" question of this kind should have at least two "reasonable" answers (just stating fact, somewhat didactically, but NOT condescendingly). This question surely only has ONE, that being to get you guys thinking about the league and the system in a critical way and to "hear out" any thoughts/ideas that have come out of that critical thinking process or maybe even to just listen to you think it through aloud and, with it ultimately in mind, that at our, the GBRFL's, meeting when we discuss and vote on this issue, you all's, the GBRFL2ers', thoughts will likely be bandied about and "considered" in our discussions. Of course, "speaking your mind" does predicate "thinking". One's word only has weight proportionate to the thought put into it, which is/should be true in all facets of life. In any event, what other answer is there? There is NO other ("reason-able") answer. Moreover, maybe not in these exact words, but it's not like I did not state my answer here before on this thread. Thus, this question lacks validity. It's brought up more so to rabble-rouse. BUT, let's not just consider the actual answers, I will even go as far as to entertain active "responses", which, though having nothing to do with validity, are surely part of "reality" and the efficacy of the question. From me, ¹ it could elicit the anger (regarding what this is "really" about) to boil over and my making a complete ass of myself and screwing the pooch and saying, "Fine, fuck you guys! I don't want to hear your inane 'opining'," which would prove "some(one's) point", I guess, BUT which I am NOT going to do because that's not me at all (if you really get how I tick) nor what I want to do. I may be "hardcore", but I remain rational. On the other hand, ² I suppose that it could also cause me (if I were a deluded softy) to change my mind, and let you guys vote, but that definitely ain't happenin', either, as I am absolutely firm in my convictions about this situation and what's best for the (burgeoning) future of this VERY unique (set of) league(s) (and since roughly 75+% of the work falls on my shoulders, which I am bringing up as it affects the "reality" of the situation, not to throw it up in your faces as many seem to take it). The only other possible "response" from me is ³ what has happened, namely that I end up verbosely repeating myself a-gain, which is a colossal waste of time, but which I feel is necessary given the "misleading" nature of the question and what I (can only) perceive to be an according lack of understanding. Now, besides me, there are also "responses" from others that might be elicited. For one, ⁴ GBRFL2ers may get discouraged and be disinclined to state their takes. Gee, that's great! Or, perhaps, ⁵ it may incite other GBRFL2ers to jump on "the (apparent/implied) bandwagon" and, I guess, demand their "right to vote", which is only going to create a HUGE headache for me, the guy making all this possible to begin with (again, for those easily affected, remind yourself... "reality", not "in your face"), as that is NOT going to happen this year. Gee, that's great, too! ⁶ I'll fold the league (and be made out to look like a real asshole, which, again, I suppose accomplishes some indirect mission) before doing that... this year. Gee, that's even greater! So, tell me, which one of those six possible elicited "responses" is worthwhile? (Rhetorical question to make a point, which is basically what that question above is, not a valid question.) The question "in question" is neither valid nor worthwhile. So, I ask myself, "Why ask such a question and, moreover, assert its validity?" Answer: because it and its purpose have little to nothing to do with the specific issue of this thread. Its purpose is to strike back at me (for something else) or to prove a point (regarding this "something else") and that stinks.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Dec 30^th, 2003, 12:28pm

GBRFLers, this will be voted on or at least dealt with (perhaps once again tabled for a year) at our next meeting (whenever that is... more info on that will be posted). GBRFLers and GBRFL2ers, feel free to continue discussing the issue as all perspectives will be taken into due consideration. [smiley=bow.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Jan 7^th, 2005, 4:21pm

Since I think we might be discussing a couple big issues here this offseason, I'd like us to revisit this one with due diligence.

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 11^th, 2005, 1:34pm

I don't know about you guys, but I am ALREADY loving, in the sense of enjoying, not in the sense of outcome, of course (that's why I write it now at the beginnings of the Sunday games), the ability to field extra players, FOR WHICH TO ROOT!!! Game-result efficacy aside, this was a GREAT move WITH RESPECT TO (and FOR) "FUN",... no two ways about it!!! [smiley=twothumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Sep 28^th, 2005, 6:10pm

Joe, a quote from the "Comments" section of your Week Two lineup submission:

Quote:

for some crazy reason this thing made me fill out the bottom section. I want the same as above for all things!!!

Give me a break, man... You even did it right Week One. As it CLEARLY states on the lineup submission page, and as you evidently understood Week One, AFTER you type in your lineup in the upper (Game 1) lineup submission section, you simply click the checkbox and your lineup automatically appears in the lower (Game 2) lineup submission section with absolutely NO changes. You canNOT even input a lineup in the lower section without clicking the checkbox first. The only way you could have cluster-fucked it the way you did is if you FIRST clicked the checkbox before inputting your initial lineup in the upper section, which would be retarded as it CLEARLY states on the page that "All this does is automatically put the "Game 1" lineup you entered above in for "Game 2". If you want the same lineup in for BOTH games (or do not have a second, bonus game this week), make NO changes to the lineup below!" The OBVIOUS implication is that you have to have typed in your "Game 1" lineup first. ... And, yes, it is REQUIRED to have BOTH sections filled out... That's why "for some crazy reason (it) made (you) fill out the bottom section." I'm not going to waste my time explaining why this is necessary here. If you are REALLY interested, think it through. It'll be a great lesson in logic. Or, just take that I have and DO WHAT IT SAYS! Of course, this would all be made much easier if you gave yourself more than five minutes (to do things calmly) on Sunday before the games to get your lineup in. This was exactly the concern I had when I was harping on this going into Week One,... when, mind you, no one (including you) ended up not having any problems. But, I guess one-week retainment is too much to have asked for. :-/

Title: Re: Remember to think about the flex lineup issue!
Post by StegRock on Oct 2^nd, 2005, 2:36am

Steve Warner called me today and asked me a great question, one I had been thinking about but just did not get around to addressing... Let it be known that your "Game 1" lineup is the one you use against your "first" opponent of the week, the game in gray font on the "Schedule" page, NOT THE TEAM WITH THE LOWER TEAM NUMBER!!! Your "Game 2" lineup is used against your "second" opponent, the game in blue font on the "Schedule" page, NOT THE TEAM WITH THE HIGHER TEAM NUMBER!!! Again, it goes according to the "Schedule" (page), NOT TEAM NUMBERS!!! Also, remember that if you fail to submit your lineup, it is your last lineup submission IN TOTAL that gets applied, NOT JUST YOUR "Game 1" LINEUP!!! If you only have one game, of course, your "Game 1" lineup is used. BUT, if you have two games on a week for which you fail to submit a linuep, the point is that your most recent lineup submission form output, the one at the top of your lineup display page, is what is applied AS IS, i.e., the "Game 1" upper-section lineup is applied to your "Game 1", the "Game 2" lower-section lineup to your "Game 2". Very straightforward, actually. It is NOT that your "Game 1" lineup is applied to both games.