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        the Gridiron >> the Red Zone >>  Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
        
(Message started by: StegRock on Oct 6th, 2003, 4:47pm)
Title: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Oct 6th, 2003, 4:47pm
Here's how it's reading on "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/6943659.htm;

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/106543270753132.xml.

HOWEVER, those of you "on the Couch", don't get TOO comfortable. ;) Couch's big game came against the Steelers D :P and his other was a miserable loss to Cincinnati.  Don't go quickly discounting the Browns arguably more impressive victory, a BIG-time comeback over the 49ers with a beat-up Holcomb at the helm!
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by DirkDiggler on Oct 6th, 2003, 5:49pm

on 10/06/03 at 16:47:55, StegRock wrote:
Here's how it's reading on "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/6943659.htm;

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/106543270753132.xml.

HOWEVER, those of you "on the Couch", don't get TOO comfortable. ;) Couch's big game came against the Steelers D :P and his other was a miserable loss to Cincinnati.  Don't go quickly discounting the Browns arguably more impressive victory, a BIG-time comeback over the 49ers with a beat-up Holcomb at the helm!


I have a funny feeling that Holcomb's injury is going to be a little more serious than first diagnosed.  

How can you bench Couch?  He has played well in the last two games.  Specifically last night he was outstanding!!  No way you can bench him.

For those of you in Holcombs camp...."beware" what Butch Davis says. Remember that he said Holcomb was his starter.  (yea, right)
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by steelkings on Oct 6th, 2003, 6:42pm
Excuse me while I get on the soap box. The reverand Steelkings is about to address you.

1. Let us not forget that every quarterback that plays Pittsburgh ends up with a sore arm from completing so many passes. That secondary couldnt keep my daughters hamster from catching a pass. The browns could have put a port-a-potty in the backfield for couch to take a crap in while he waited for the Steeler pass rush.
2. It must be tough to throw the ball while the Steelers stuff your running game for 150 yrds.
3. Couch had to be exausted from running on and off the field so much. I think Tommy(turnover) Maddox was trying to wear out the Brown Offence.

The point is that Pittsburgh could be the worst team in the NFL. At least right now. I  think Butch Davis will remember last year. Holcomb is the starter.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Keyshawn Johnson 76yards on Oct 6th, 2003, 6:43pm

on 10/06/03 at 17:49:15, DirkDiggler wrote:
For those of you in Holcombs camp...."beware" what Butch Davis says. Remember that he said Holcomb was his starter.  (yea, right)


I totally agree, hate to say I told you, Steg.  :P
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by StegRock on Oct 6th, 2003, 6:51pm

on 10/06/03 at 18:42:14, steelkings wrote:
The point is that Pittsburgh could be the worst team in the NFL. At least right now. I think Butch Davis will remember last year. Holcomb is the starter.


I totally agree, hate to say I told you,... KJ. ::)
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Keyshawn Johnson 76yards on Oct 6th, 2003, 7:02pm

on 10/06/03 at 18:42:14, steelkings wrote:
The point is that Pittsburgh could be the worst team in the NFL. At least right now. I  think Butch Davis will remember last year. Holcomb is the starter.


I couldn't disagree more. Yes, that seconday is one of the worst in the NFL, but to even mention Pittsburgh in the same sentence with worst team, is crazy.

There is no LB core like that of Pittsburgh. Porter, Gildon, and Bell are three pro bowlers. Farrior was a 1st round pick, and led the league one year in tackles.
Maddox leads the league in passing yards, and yes, he has thrown a ton of INTs. Though, this is Mularkey's fault  not his. The Steelers have NOT run the ball AT ALL this season, and it's not because they can't, they're to busy forcing the passes and getting picked off, so when it's 3rd and 4th quarter, and they're trailing big, they're forced to pass.

The point is though, NOT every QB performs BIG TIME against POOR D's. Pittsburgh is FAR from a poor D, in my opinion. Tim Couch had a good performance every which way you look at it.

Their's a QB controversy a stirrin' and Couch will come up on top, winning.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by DirkDiggler on Oct 6th, 2003, 7:14pm

Quote:
Their's a QB controversy a stirrin' and Couch will come up on top, winning.  


Agreed.  And Holcomb will be on the bench whinning.    [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by steelkings on Oct 6th, 2003, 7:43pm
First off.( here he go's again [smiley=soapboxer.gif])

The Steeler linebackers get rave reviews for stopping the run. They stay in their running lanes and little else. In 2003. (For you kj76.Thats this year!) You have to stop the pass. The Steeler linebackers dont rush the QB. SEE PORTAPOTTY. The sloth like speed of the front 4 is increadible. As for Maddox. When you throw a pick it should be because you tried to force something, not because you panicked. I dont think maddox saw any of the LINEBACKERS that have taken his picks to the house. Right now the Steelers are terrible in every way.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Callie on Oct 6th, 2003, 7:48pm
One more thing.

Mid-season schedule for the Browns is better than first third.

KC is in there, NE may be tough or easy.  SD and AZ should be a walk.

If Couch stays in and Holcomb is still out, Couch looks better and better to the organization.

Also, in 2004...there can be only one.  You know they're watching...
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by StegRock on Oct 6th, 2003, 8:24pm

on 10/06/03 at 17:49:15, DirkDiggler wrote:
How can you bench Couch?  He has played well in the last two games.


Saying Couch played well against Cincinnati two weeks ago is like saying Doug Johnson played well this past weekend or Vinny Testaverde is playing well this season.  Granted not to the degree that Testaverde has been, but Couch ultimately was having a hard time getting the team in the endzone against the lowly Bengals.  Then, he accumulated a whole 280 yards in that game, not as much as Johnson granted, mostly in mop-up time when he had to hawk it up on like every play because they were playing catch-up.  Look, admittedly, Couch has had ONE really good game, against one of the WORST pass defenses in the league and to deny that Pittsburgh is one of the worst pass defenses is just silly (not that that is what you said, KJ, but it is a "fact" that you deal with in a very, well, equivocal way).  I go by what the coach says until otherwise proven.  Is it possible that Couch gets the job back?  Sure, I started and gave the title to the God damn thread!  I just get tired of hearing speculation be stated as fact and then, moreover, the ignorance or equivocation of certain facts.  Ultimately, the "truth" of this "right now" lies somewhere in the middle of the two extreme possibilities.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Philly on Oct 6th, 2003, 10:40pm

on 10/06/03 at 20:24:46, StegRock wrote:
Saying Couch played well against Cincinnati two weeks ago is like saying Doug Johnson played well this past weekend or Vinny Testaverde is playing well this season.  Granted not to the degree that Testaverde has been, but Couch ultimately was having a hard time getting the team in the endzone against the lowly Bengals.  Then, he accumulated a whole 280 yards in that game, not as much as Johnson granted, mostly in mop-up time when he had to hawk it up on like every play because they were playing catch-up.  Look, admittedly, Couch has had ONE really good game, against one of the WORST pass defenses in the league and to deny that Pittsburgh is one of the worst pass defenses is just silly (not that that is what you said, KJ, but it is a "fact" that you deal with in a very, well, equivocal way).  I go by what the coach says until otherwise proven.  Is it possible that Couch gets the job back?  Sure, I started and gave the title to the God damn thread!  I just get tired of hearing speculation be stated as fact and then, moreover, the ignorance or equivocation of certain facts.  Ultimately, the "truth" of this "right now" lies somewhere in the middle of the two extreme possibilities.


Steg, apparently you're getting the Browns' broadcasts to be able to speak so definitively on the Couch-Holcomb issue.  I haven't seen any of the games, so I'm going strictly by the stats and Couch has put up some nice ones.  I don't care if he's playing catch-up or if he's playing against a weak Steelers' secondary, fantasy numbers are fantasy numbers.  The point is it is a situation that should be avoided right now because Couch can't stay on the team's good side and Holcomb is about as fragile as Kurt Warner now.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by StegRock on Oct 6th, 2003, 11:50pm

on 10/06/03 at 22:40:13, Philly wrote:
...fantasy numbers are fantasy numbers.


Yea, if you happened to have Couch in your lineup this week and/or last, but not if you are evaluating him for the long-term, which is the main debate here, and fantasy numbers, as such, not numbers in general, have no effect on an NFL head coach's decision-making process.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by DOLFAN on Oct 7th, 2003, 1:33am
This is a very interesting drama to watch. I personally like Couch more, don't know why...True he has better fantasy #s, but that may or may not win football games. Here are their stats:
Couch:
1999 Cleveland Browns 15 14 399 223 55.9 2447 6.13 78 15 13 73.2
2000 Cleveland Browns 7 7 215 137 63.7 1483 6.90 79 7 9 77.3
2001 Cleveland Browns 16 16 454 272 59.9 3040 6.70 78 17 21 73.1
2002 Cleveland Browns 14 14 443 273 61.6 2842 6.42 78 18 18 76.8
2003 Cleveland Browns 2 2 61 43 70.5 488 8.00 71 4 2 102.4
TOTAL  54 53 1572 948 60.3 10300 6.55 79 61 63 75.9
Holcomb:
1997 Indianapolis Colts 5 1 73 45 61.6 454 6.22 41 1 8 44.3
2001 Cleveland Browns 1 0 12 7 58.3 114 9.50 25 1 0 118.1
2002 Cleveland Browns 4 2 106 64 60.4 790 7.45 44 8 4 92.9
2003 Cleveland Browns 3 3 104 62 59.6 551 5.30 27 3 5 63.4
TOTAL  13 6 295 178 60.3 1909 6.47 44 13 17 70.0

After looking at there stats (last and this yr) they are close onmay things. I would pikc Couch as a better long term prospect.
I think CLE wants to see Holcomb to see what he has/IS. I think they know what the have in Couch, and wanted to see if they will part with at yrs end, go with Holcomb, or go get another guy all together. Couch has played 5 yrs of his 6 YR deal.
I think Couch has more skills and upside. Maybe the players don't like him, who knows. I don't think Davis knows. Either way...fantasy wise i would arther stay away from it all if possible, so that i don't want to have any investment in it all at. Couch will have a better career though. Maybe Holcomb is the next Feidler/Brad/Gannon??? or the next Blake/Dilfer/Greise. You guys can find out and i will stay away from it.
I do have Couch in CBFL though. That is the only league i have him in backing up Favre.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Keyshawn Johnson 76yards on Oct 7th, 2003, 4:58pm
Couch also has the longest road-winning streak at  I believe 16(?).

He can't win at home because of the pressure those pesky Cleveland Brown's fans always give him. (Remember when he was knocked out and they cheered last season?)

Couch is a HELL OF A LOT better QB then Holcomb. I figure let Couch play away, and Holcomb at home.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy begin
Post by Keyshawn Johnson 76yards on Oct 7th, 2003, 6:24pm
I saw on ESPN a few minutes ago, Tim Couch WILL start this Sunday against the Oakland Raiders.  I couldn't find any local news on this... maybe later in the day or week.

Also, Butch Davis said Couch will be the starter until Holcomb is "fully healthy." Meaning if Couch focks it up this week, Holcomb will be back real soon, if not, I told you so.  :P

Found it: http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/6951272.htm
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Oct 22nd, 2003, 9:16pm
We're going into Week 8 and here's the latest coming out of "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/2339.0.html.

Now, let the controversy rage on... [smiley=arguing.gif]
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by Noey21 on Oct 25th, 2003, 9:21pm
Couch should start the road games.

Holcomb the home games.

QBBC...the Gators of old
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by Callie on Oct 26th, 2003, 12:02am
Didja notice that the Browns are missing THREE starting offensive linemen this week?  Starting C Jeff Faine (knee), starting OT Barry Stokes (ankle), and starting G Shaun O'Hara (knee) are not expected to play!

Even if one Cleveland QB gets a chance to play the whole game....

PLUS, didja notice that the Pats are winning games because of their D?  A very good D.

I'd stay away from Browns players this week, except maybe Northcutt.  He's playing a "young nickel corner" so may do some damage. (Guru Report, good premium to pick up.) :)  Also, maybe Kevin Johnson, because Ty Law is questionable and may be out.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by DirkDiggler on Oct 26th, 2003, 3:48pm
Well...looks like the picture got cleared up this week.  NOT!!!!!

Couch had a banged up thumb, but x-rays were negative.  Holcomb looked like crap when taking over.  

Pathetic!!!  So now I guess we have to wait and see until the genius Butch Davis announces his quarterback next Sunday.  My money is on Couch....
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Nov 3rd, 2003, 10:27pm
Well, not too much coming out on this.  But, here is what it says on "The REAL Feed (http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/newsstand.htm)":

Browns suspend Green; Holcomb to start at QB
NFL.com (03.11.2003 19:34)
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by DirkDiggler on Nov 4th, 2003, 12:37pm

on 11/03/03 at 22:27:26, StegRock wrote:
Well, not too much coming out on this.  But, here is what it says on "The REAL Feed (http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/newsstand.htm)":

Browns suspend Green; Holcomb to start at QB
NFL.com (03.11.2003 19:34)


Yes, I have read that Holcomb will start.  The deep thinker Butch Davis gave this reason:

He wants to start the way the season started.  

Uh sure.  He did also mention that Holcomb's leg is still bothering him.  Sounds like an excuse to keep him on a short leash!
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by Philly on Nov 4th, 2003, 3:07pm

on 11/04/03 at 12:37:44, DirkDiggler wrote:
Yes, I have read that Holcomb will start.  The deep thinker Butch Davis gave this reason:

He wants to start the way the season started.  


Didn't the season start with a loss?   [smiley=whistle.gif]
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by DirkDiggler on Nov 30th, 2003, 8:29pm
The Saga continues.


After an ineffective first half, Holcombe is benched.  Tim Couch is the starter in the second half.  

What does he do, goes 1 for 3 before injuring his knee.  Holcomb is brought in to finish game.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Dec 2nd, 2003, 2:18pm
Despite Couch's probable availability to play on Monday night, Holcomb gets the start.  Here is how it reads in the LOCAL sources on "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/2418.0.html;

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/7392986.htm;

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1070361407184140.xml;

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10598866&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46370&rfi=6.

Holcomb's the OC's guy!  That is and will continue to be the pervading bottom line (until there is a coaching/coordinator change).
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Dec 8th, 2003, 7:43pm
ESPN just announced that though Holcomb will start tonight's game against the Rams, Couch will be available.  Here is more info from the Browns' official site available on "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/2425.0.html.

It'll be interesting to see how tonight's game unfolds.  The Rams [smiley=ram.gif] may be "the greatest show on turf", but they tend to be " [smiley=smurfy.gif] smurfs [smiley=smurf.gif] on solid 'earth'", especially in the extreme cold. [smiley=cold.gif]
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by PrimeTime on Dec 8th, 2003, 8:10pm
Holcomb will get Davis fired! [smiley=firinback.gif]

Why Davis insists on starting Holcomb is beyond me.  [smiley=shrug.gif]

He should have stuck with Couch, but now he can't go back because he is not man enough to admit he was wrong on Holcomb.

What a mess he created. [smiley=horse.gif]

I won't even go into the Kevin Johnson situation.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by Mr. Malloy on Dec 10th, 2003, 1:49pm
And, the saga continues...  Couch is back off the couch, and the team is back on the couch. [smiley=uh.gif] ;) Uh, what he said...  Here's what "The REAL Feed" says, in any event:

QB Couch back as Browns starter
NFL.com (10.12.2003 13:22)
Tim Couch got his job back and will start Sunday against Denver for the Cleveland Browns, who have juggled quarterbacks all season.

Here is the only currently available corroborative report for the local sources on "the Gridiron Newsstand":

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/2432.0.html.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Feb 17th, 2004, 11:19pm
From "The REAL Feed"... yet another twist in this unending saga...

Browns QB Holcomb out up to six months after surgery
NFL.com (17.02.2004 18:22)

And the locals on "the Gridiron Newsstand" are indicating a return to "the Couch"...

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/7925915.htm.

And the plot thickens... [smiley=hmmmm.gif] ... [smiley=lickinmychops.gif]
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by PrimeTime on Feb 19th, 2004, 11:41pm
As I said way back on Dec 8th (see above), it just amazes me that Davis would start Holcomb over Couch.  While Couch is not a great QB by any means, he is much better than Holcomb.  In my opinion, Davis has made a number of mistakes since taking over the Browns and creating the Couch/Holcomb mess is just one of them.

I hope he learned his lesson and gets a solid OL and creates a good running game before next season.
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Feb 20th, 2004, 12:00am

on 02/19/04 at 23:41:22, PrimeTime wrote:
I hope he learned his lesson and gets a solid OL and creates a good running game before next season.


PT, agreed, at least on this point, 100%!!! [smiley=yes.gif]

...

I also thought this headline from "The REAL Feed" was well worth posting here:

QB quandary: Holcomb surgery; Couch contract
ESPN: NFL (19.02.2004 23:46)

::)
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by BarnabyWilde on Mar 4th, 2004, 4:11pm
Jeff Garcia will meet Friday with the Cleveland Browns, who are exploring other options at quarterback in case they can't work out a new contract with Tim Couch.

Garcia, a three-time Pro Bowler, was released earlier this week by San Francisco to clear room under the salary cap. He played five seasons for the 49ers.

Browns spokesman Todd Stewart said Garcia is scheduled to visit the team's training facility on Friday for an interview.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/04/sports1453EST0428.DTL
Title: Re: Browns - Let the QB controversy... continue
Post by StegRock on Mar 8th, 2004, 7:14pm
Given what CNN/SI is reporting, as per our "Jeff Garcia tracker" thread here in "the Red Zone", it is not surprising that they'd report this:

Roundup: Browns still working on Couch
SI.com: NFL (08.03.2004 17:12)

Not that it is totally untrue, but ESPN and CNN/SI seem to have taken sides on this whole Garcia-Couch, Browns-Buccaneers thing and this report is surely "consistent" with where CNN/SI "stands" on the issue. :-/


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