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        the Gridiron >> between the 20's >>  Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
        
(Message started by: ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 11:48am)

Title: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 11:48am

I have to ask you something in my ongoing pursuit to understand the (contemporary) meaning/understanding of the word "rotisserie." I know how I have used it and what I really mean by it, but when I see someone using the term for the apparent purpose of differentiation (from some other style of "fantasy" play), I become perplexed. So, SW, what do you specifically mean when you use the term "rotisserie-style"?

I have been asked the above re: rotisserie style fantasy leagues.
Below is my understanding of "rotisserie", where it comes from, what it IS and what it ISN'T.
What I've heard, learned and understood over the years.
Some things I'm sure of, some not so sure. Some details have by now passed into urban legend.

"Rotisserie" ("roto") leagues (strictly baseball leagues originally) began in the New York and/or Philly area. Some say as early as the late '40s.
This game was almost entirely played in these cities, then gradually spread to other large, northern cities (Detroit, Chicago, etc.)
In the 70s, when the economy went to hell, a lot of workers from these cities moved South and West, taking roto ball with them to their new workers/offices.
Then, with the internet - fantasy ball in general, and the rotisserie system with it, went national.

The scoring system in roto ball (below) produces a "grid", almost a cage, with numbers that, ideally, will move up and down.
This "moving" "grid" was reminescent of rotisseries found in deli shops. Typically, a deli would have a basket-style rotisserie in the shop window, revolving, with, say, a leg of lamb, roast beef, whatever. These were very common sights all over NYC/Philly.
Thus the term "rotisserie".

Rotissierie is NOT head-to-head play.
It is NOT simply the mass accumulation of points over the entire season (though they are used).

The league/commissioner decides on certain categories that will obtain points for the players.
Typically, this would be things like hits, RBIs, HRs, Slugging %, steals and for pitchers Ks, ERA, wins, WHIP ratio (don't ask, but purists feel WHIP is the best indicator of a pitcher's true overall performance), etc.

These categories are arranged in seperate, vertical columns.
The owners (players) are arragged in horizontal rows.
This produces the "grid" mentioned above.
Each week, an owner accumulates points.
He is then ranked in each column on a weekly basis.
For example: in a 12-owner league, in the "steals" column, the owner that has accumulated the most steals is awarded 12 points. The 2nd best, 11 points. The 3rd best, 10 points. Etc.
Thus, the maximum points you could possibly accumulate (a "perfect" score) in a 12-owner league with 12 "categories" would be 144 points (12 points max x 12 categories = 144 points).

To be rotisserie style, the format must be as above.
Points awarded according to where you "stand" in each category.

This keeps points from getting huge by the end of the baseball season (say, in the 1,000s) and also makes no one category any more important than any other. 1st place in any category is worth 12 points whether it's RBIs, ERA, hits, whatever.

~ScreamingWeasel

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ugley on Jan 20^th, 2003, 11:55am

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 12:00pm

on 01/20/03 at 11:55:28, ugley wrote:

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

What? Did I do a good job? :)

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ugley on Jan 20^th, 2003, 12:07pm

on 01/20/03 at 12:00:35, ScreamingWeasel wrote:

What? Did I do a good job? :)

Yes sir, good job indeed. [smiley=bow.gif]

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 12:24pm

on 01/20/03 at 12:07:05, ugley wrote:

Yes sir, good job indeed. [smiley=bow.gif]

Thanks a lot.
I appreciate that.
~ScreamingWeasel

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by StegRock on Jan 20^th, 2003, 1:17pm

Sounds like the real deal! [smiley=yes.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I asked the question, SW, because back in the day when I first got into what is now called "fantasy football" in 1989 when heading off to college, we called it "rotisserie football." We continued to use the term to date. According to my (subjective) experience, which is a bit tunnel-visioned, I did not even hear the term "fantasy football" until the internet boom of the hobby, perhaps around 1995. Also of note, the term "Rotisserie League Baseball" is defined in Webster's Dictionary (simply) as "a game in which participants compete by running imaginary baseball teams whose results are based on the actual performances of major-league players." Sounds like the word "rotisserie" is completely interchangeable with how we contemporarily use the term "fantasy" when you read that, and I suppose in today's day and age it has become so. That having been said, I ALWAYS knew that there had to be some distinct reason to have used the word "rotisserie" as it seems a rather odd term. YOUR EXPLANATION MAKES PERFECT SENSE! Moreover, I now understand how the George Blanda ROTISSERIE Football League (GBRFL) is "rotisserie" and how it is not and that it ultimately is still a GREAT word to use nowadays to indicate the BIG way in which the GBRFL is VERY different from mainstream, contemporary "fantasy" football. In that we play a "head-to-head" schedule, the GBRFL is inconsistent with the strict definition of "rotisserie" that SW suggests and that I NOW take as accurate and true. HOWEVER, in that the GBRFL employs a very unique "rotisserie-style" catagory-by-category, fixed-points system of scoring vis-a-vis a cumulative proportional points scoring system, which is so prevelant today, we are distinctively "rotisserie" in style, i.e., we maintain the spirit of "the grid." Thusly, the GBRFL, in very exact terms, is a "head-to-head" version of "rotisserie football." Actually, if you think about it, not that this is a bad thing, but the kind of system that strays away from the rotisserie style quite notably is the "head-to-head", "cumulative proportional points" system so prevalent today as, in truth, a "non-head-to-head", "cumulative proportional points" system, like that of the CBFL, could be coined a "proportional" scoring version of "rotisserie" football, i.e., the grid can be maintained. At any rate, this thread is what "the Gridiron" is all about... substance that is! Thanks, SW... [smiley=bow.gif] for putting an end to this mystery AND for opening the door for me to creatively and meaningfully link/package "the Gridiron" and GBRFL-style football in a neat way, at least linguistically. In any case, I hope I have contributed, with the application of a little logic, by putting the term "rotisserie" into a contempory perspective.

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by Walker_Boh on Jan 20^th, 2003, 2:29pm

Thanks for the history lesson. That was good stuff.

Nice work [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 3:05pm

Steg,
Well, I hate to say this, but that simply isn't true.

Rotisserie leagues are alive and well today and preferred by many fantasy players.
Especially older traditionalists and "purists".

There is no "contemporary" interpretation, and it is not completely interchangeable with the term "fantasy football".

If you're in a league that uses a win/loss format and/OR head-to-head play, it's simply not rotisserie.
That's the whole point of playing in a rotisserie-style league.

Sorry. But's that's the way it is.

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by Keyshawn Johnson 76yards on Jan 20^th, 2003, 3:19pm

I'm in a rotisserie league for both hockey and basketball.

Baseball isn't the only rotisserie style fantasy league out there...

Although, I prefer head-to-head over rotisserie...

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 3:37pm

on 01/20/03 at 15:19:07, Keyshawn Johnson 76yards wrote:

I'm in a rotisserie league for both hockey and basketball.

Baseball isn't the only rotisserie style fantasy league out there...

Although, I prefer head-to-head over rotisserie...

You're exactly right.
The "rotisserie style" is also used in the other major sports.
It's simply a style that's preferred by a lot of people.
A format alive and well today.
I was only speaking to it's inception when I talked about baseball.
It's what I originally meant when I said my football "money league" had become "rotisserie style", which started this whole thread.
~ScreamingWeasel

PS: Roto backetball. Personally, I hate roto leagues, but THAT sounds downright interesting. What are the categories? A "6th Man" category would be GREAT. ;D Roto hockey? Now they've gone too far! LOL!

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 3:42pm

Personally, what I hate about rotisserie style fantasy sports is that things have pretty much panned out by mid-season. Sometimes sooner.
I find that if you're in, say, 5th place at mid-season, that's pretty much were you'll stay for the rest of the season. Barring an absolute insane trade, or a major, major injury.
Anyone else playing roto find this to be true?
~ScreamingWeasel

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by Walker_Boh on Jan 20^th, 2003, 4:32pm

I played in a rotisserie baseball league last season, and like you said, it's tough to move up in that format. I started the first quarter of the season towards the bottom of the pack and it took me another half of the season to finally crack the top 3. I had my days on top, but eventually finished second overall. I appreciated the challenge of coming up with the best "well rounded" team, but I missed the weekly "victory parties" or "agonizing defeats" that Head-to-Head formats provide. I also noticed that the league was silent for most of the year. The baseball season is long enough, but when no one is talking, it's down right torturous! The Head-to-Head format adds to the competitive nature of the game and increases the interest of the players involved. Even when you're in last place, you still do everything you can to beat the guy that's talked trash all season.

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 20^th, 2003, 4:58pm

on 01/20/03 at 16:32:15, Walker_Boh wrote:

I played in a rotisserie baseball league last season, and like you said, it's tough to move up in that format ... the Head-to-Head format adds to the competitive nature of the game and increases the interest of the players involved. Even when you're in last place, you still do everything you can to beat the guy that's talked trash all season.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, Walker.
And ... to add insult to injury ( ;D) ... most roto league also tend to be "keeper" leagues.
The roto baseball league where I work (now in it's 15th season) allows you to keep a player at his original drafted salary for THREE YEARS. Want to extend his contract? No problem. $1 more for the 4th year. $2 for a 5th!
There's people with Randy Johnson locked up for FIVE YEARS, and hot rookies (original draft auction price 10 CENTS) locked up at that price for 3 years - and, even at 5 years, a salary of $2.10.
The ONLY thing worse than a rotisserie league is a rotisserie "keeper" league!

I'm like you.
Even in last place, I want to knock the snot out of the wise ass that's been bragging all year.

And ... every year's a fresh start. A level playing field. If not in a "keeper" league.

Your pal,
~ScreamingWeasel

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by StegRock on Jan 20^th, 2003, 8:22pm

on 01/20/03 at 15:05:31, ScreamingWeasel wrote:

No, don't lie! You don't "hate to say it" and you are definitely not "sorry." ::)

Anyway, semantics, semantics! I am one to be skeptical whenever someone claims absolute correctness or righteousness. In discourse, I tend to be a little more open-minded and generous in my outlook; finding the middle ground, which is usually where the truth lies, whenever possible and being gently didactic in my approach if need be and not looking to contradict others in a terse way.

Moving right along, strictly defined, as per SW, right! Loosely defined, as per Webster's, whatever! I think, in the effort to capture the difference between leagues like the GBRFL and mainstream kinds of (commissioner.com-style) leagues, it is VERY fair to use the (loose definition of the) word "rotisserie" (i.e. Webster's definition), especially since it seems to have little to no use with regards to football, at least as per this thread, to indicate that, for example, the GBRFL is a "head-to-head" game that employs a "rotisserie-style" scoring system. The scoring format is "rotisserie" (i.e. categorized and compared, and then a fixed amount of points awarded) in nature, as per your very own explanation. "Rotisserie" here is an adjective (originally was a noun having nothing to do with any of this), which as you state has a very specific derivation and according usage, its strict definition. All I am suggesting, like Webster's, is that, like all adjectives that come to mind, "rotisserie" can be applied "loosely" too, in order to capture a partial/differentiating truth and I think that is a fair assertion. "Head-to-head rotisserie" is exactly what I would describe the GBRFL as, given the options, "head-to-head fixed-points category-based-scoring" or some other convoluted wording. My usage is fair if for no other reason than expediency. It is precisely the GBRFL's "rotisserieness," to whatever degree it is, that differentiates it, in an important way, from the typical fantasy football league. Hell, it is exactly a rotisserie system, just taken two teams at a time, i.e. "match play." Hypothetically, as ridiculous as this might sound, think of what a two-team, match-play rotisserie league would be like... a "head-to-head rotisserie" league! [smiley=ohshit.gif] If two such guys, best friends, duking it out decided to play their "mano-on-mano" "rotisserie" game according to match-play rules rather than cumulative points, would they then be out-of-line still calling their game "rotisserie" football? No way! Though I understand that commonly a "rotisserie" league would not include head-to-head games as there would typically be more than two teams in a league, logically, as in logical necessity, "rotisserie" does not absolutely preclude the presence of a "head-to-head" format. Again, logically that is! In any event, any argument to the contrary is merely an argument of semantics or an argument for argument's sake. I am using a loose definition to capture a partial or differentiating truth; you are using the strict historically-based definition, which applies to a very specific set of circumstances. MOST words in the English language can be used in both ways like that. It is like saying that Buddhism is religious, in that it includes the embodiment of some concepts and practices tied to religion. Nevertheless, Buddhism is not really a religion, specifically as such. Actually, it is, more so, areligious in character. However, in common parlance, we usually do lump Buddhism in together with other religions, considering it a religion. How can this be? Overlapping definitions, usually due to strict versus loose applications.

Whatever! I'm done! You are now free to go about pointing out how you are ultimately and irrefutably correct and that I am not, not even in the least.

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by ScreamingWeasel on Jan 21^st, 2003, 5:05am

Holy cow.
I give up.
I suppose, Steg, you can call it whatever you like.
You can call a moose a horse if you want to.
I was just trying to be helpful.
Being helpful doesn't mean I know it all.
I just happen to know what "rotisserie" means.
That's all.

Title: Re: Rotisserie Style Fantasy Leagues
Post by StegRock on Jan 21^st, 2003, 12:12pm

I gave you your props, SW! Get off it! I admitted you were right on! I massaged your ego in the e-mail and the private messages I sent you as well as on numerous threads. Meanwhile, I still had to overlook at least one uncalledfor, mean-spirited comment sent my way by you. Your haughty air just rubs me the wrong way!

Oh, and by the way, did you know that a modern-day pinball machine doesn't have one pin! Not a one! Now, how could that be?