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        the Gridiron >> between the 20's >>  Turning it over
        
(Message started by: KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 1:19pm)

Title: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 1:19pm

I'm not sure if this has already been done but, if not then, I would like to see if there is any interest out there for a new type of league. (most likely next season)
Basically, its an all-out IDP league.
Only play IDPs, (9 to 11 guys) , ONE Offensive Position (team offense totalling points scored and yards) and just for kicks , a punter position.
Though most of you probably already have , this might be a great way for players who haven't yet experienced IDPs to get their feet wet and see if they like it.
Just a thought.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 1:20pm

also to include special team play on the offensive position ;D

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by StegRock on Jul 29^th, 2003, 1:39pm

on 07/29/03 at 13:19:06, KillerKingSting wrote:

GREAT [smiley=gotanidea.gif] idea, brother! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] You got my complete support as admin here. It might be a little tough gettin' guys at this point (and with the announcement of the commencement of the GBRFL2 right around the corner), but let's see what we can do. I love the idea of establishing leagues with unique and innovative rules structures on "the Gridiron". If you/we can get it together, I'll definitely set you up with a message board. [smiley=bow.gif] It's the least I can do! :)

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 4:23pm

Thanks StegRock! Props to this web site as I have found it to be one of the more, if not the BEST, as far as creative players are concerned.
Actually, I am just trying to see who bites at this idea and more than likely, go with it for next year unless there is an overwhelming demand to give it a go this season.
If anybody is really psyched to try it this year then, email me at everbold111@hotmail.com .

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 7:31pm

I've actually been working on this xcoring system for a while. See what you all think (though I think its not going over to well)

Tackles = 1 pt.
Assts = 0.5 pts.
DLine tackles = 1.5 pts.
Pass defense = 2 pts.
Sacks = 4 pts.
Force Fumble = 4 pts.
Fumble Recovery = 5 pts.
Interceptions = 6 pts.
Safetys = 8 pts.
Blocks = 8 pts.
Return yards (rewarded to indiv. player) = 1 pt per 10 yds. (includes kick,punt, & turnover return yards - bump up Champ Bailey).
Sack yards = 1 pt per 5 yds.

Team win (If the player's NFL team wins) = 2 pts. to the individual player.

(I do this to buffer the fact that perhaps lesser LBs will get more tackles because they are on a bad defense that has to stay on trhe field longer thus resulting in more tackle oppurtunitys - perhaps the reason why they are on the field longer and get more tackles is because, they aren't as good as defensive players who aren't on the field as long - also point in case , take Al Wilson for example. When his team won last season, he averaged 2 tackles LESS than if his team lost. So give or take, 2 tackles seems to make up for that.

Also, we can use the player's NFL team points allowed just as a Team defense does as such

7 to 13 pts. allowed = +1 pt to player.
2 - 6 pts allowed = +2 pts per player.
0 (zero) pts. allowed = +4 pts per player.

Obviously I am not going to over board with buffering the point system for players who are on great defenses (they are great defenses for a reason, because they have great defensive players), but I am allowing for the Bigger name players to shine a bit more than , some unheard of guy on the cardinals who racks up the tackles just because the Cards can't or couldn't do much to keep their offense on the field longer (no offense to Card Fans, just trying to explain my rationale).

Roster size would be anywhere from 18 - 20 defensive players (not including Team Offense/Steam Position or Punter).

Starting line-ups would be 3-3-3 DL, LB, DB respectively.

Just as on the offensive side of the ball in some leagues, a mandatory CB would have to be in the line-up (as to mimic the mandatory TE).

Flexible line-ups can be considered if everyobe agrees perhaps, can take ONE player away from a position and add it to another (ie: 2-4-3 or 3-2-4 or 3-2-4 etc....)

Punters would score like this : +4 pts per Inside the 20 punt. +1 pt per fair catch. (-1) pt per Touch back. (-3) pts per block.

The Offensive/Steam position would reflect what is done with the DT position in a basic league using total points scored and total yards gained.

All this is up for discussion. Please post any interest and or ideas!!!!!!!!!! Be as creative as you can!!
Li

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Jul 29^th, 2003, 8:36pm

Like the flexible lineup idea, therefore, a guy could play a 3-4 if he wishes one week and next week switch to a 4-3 defense...even play a nickel if you had five strong DB's and say a DL was doubtful

Just do not add too many(if any) bonus point situations base it on stats man and I would be in! ;D

Best of Luck with it

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 29^th, 2003, 8:57pm

Hi Bob,
Your right about the defensive formation part. It adds the flexibility to play a 3-4 or a 4-3 or even a nickel package. I think that would be alot of fun.
As far as any bonus points are concerned then, I'll go with the majority on whatever rules you all think we should implement. Pretty easy going here ;D

Hopefully we'll get some more responses. Thanks for the interest!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Jul 29^th, 2003, 9:03pm

Don't get me wrong I love the creativity I just despise leagues that give points for doing something say 1 point for every 20 yds receiving then they go and say plus 5 points if your W goes over 120 for the game. Well I believe he already has 6 pts for the 120 why add more, I prefer rewards based on stats rather than inflating with bonuses that's all

Yeah, the more I think about it I am keen to try an IDP league [smiley=coach.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Philly on Jul 29^th, 2003, 9:10pm

Very interesting idea... haven't seen or heard anyone else propose the idea. A lot of diehard football fans, old school ones at least, love defense... so this format intrigues me.

I didn't see it above, but what about an IDP scoring a TD? I would imagine it would be more points than a safety or a blocked kick...

Also, the idea of 1 point for 5 sack yards... can you get those stats? I don't remember seeing them anywhere, although maybe I've never looked for them.

[smiley=thumbsup.gif] on the idea and might be interested next year if you get everything fleshed out. This year I'm booked solid already. (Although there have been other people logging in and looking for a league... stick around and maybe you get some takers.)

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Jul 29^th, 2003, 9:29pm

I assume a defensive TD would be 6 points for that IDP whether an interception or a fumble return along with appropriate yadage points ;D

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Jul 30^th, 2003, 2:47am

This is interesting. I would very much be interested in doing this. It would definitely take a lot of research to get my team together.

I think I would eliminate the offensive position all together.....

I do like your bonus points for being on winning teams....

Finally, as questioned above, where would you find all these stats? it seems it would be a logistical nightmare. A lot of details. Even giving +1 for a team win seems like it could take forever.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 30^th, 2003, 7:41am

Well, I'm a bit computer illiterate here so, I have no idea how to copy someone's last post so that I can answer it like others do (is it a copy & paste thing? that I can do but, how do you do more than one AND how do you get the words in bold print?).

At any rate, please excuse my ignorance and I'll just do my best to answer so far, what I have read

To Philly = about a defensive TD = +10 pts for a LB/DB & +12 for a DL. Sorry, meant to post that before. ;D

Also on the question regarding sack yardage, NFL.com provides that information. It doesn't necessarily provide how many yards EACH separate sack detailed but gives the player's numbers of sacks and then, their sack yardage! Kool Huh!?

As far as tallying up the stats, not to worry, be my pleasure to do so. Although, there are weeks in which I work Monday & tuesday nights (its every other week, I might try and change shifts with someone though) and so, there might be a problem with me getting the stats and final results out till wensday morning. But I can try and do it tuesday morning after I arrive home from work.

If everyone could care less about the Team Offensive/Steam position then, maybe we should go with 11 IDPs instead of 9? Just a thought. It would offer alot of formation variation. And we could have a mandatory rule as to start a CB & DT , one each.

If we get enough hits then, maybe we can even do it this season but, if we fall short then, next year is just as good. We'll just keep pounding away at the idea and forming things to our likings. Also, what to call the league is another thing we should tackle.

I know next season I can get at least one other guy from my league if not 2. So that would make me, 2 others from my league, Philly, Dirk, & Bob. 6 so far, thats not a bad start at all! A few more and it'll be official. And ole Stegster might help us out as well!!!!!!

By the way, how many owners do you all want? 8-10-12?

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Walker Boh on Jul 30^th, 2003, 8:12am

Great idea KKS! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I've never seen anything like it... This is great on so many levels! It will help me learn the defensive side of the game (players, stats, schemes, positions, etc.) and won't intefere with the rest of my "offensive" [smiley=hmmmm.gif] leagues.

Sign me up!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Jul 30^th, 2003, 1:54pm

Oh yea, I forgot to say sign me up if it is a go this year.......

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 30^th, 2003, 6:44pm

Ok, well then, if its this year (which I would love to get it off and going) then, we have Walker, Bob , Dirk & myself. Thats it so far. Obviously we need about 4 more owners. Whats the least you all would want to play with this year? I'm off to work, check you guys out in the morning, have a great night!!!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Jul 30^th, 2003, 7:26pm

What is the least amount of players. Interesting. Since I really am not a defensive expert, I think that 8 would be about perfect. It would not dilute the defensive players too much....

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Jul 31^st, 2003, 1:09pm

I would say minimum of six and that might not be a bad trial run just to get the kinks out this year

Let's go for it [smiley=bow.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 1^st, 2003, 10:37am

Ok sorry guys, I meant what is the least amount of "owners" you all would consider to have this league get off the ground this year?

As far as "players" go (IDPs that is), I think we should go with at least 9. The reason being is because of the depth that defensive players provide in comparison to the offensive players.

11 guys on the field at anytime time during a play can score for the defense (in FF & real Time) as compared to 6 players on the offense that can rack up yards and points being that the OLINE guys don't count.

I think this will be an exciting league/game if we could pull it off this year. Just need more participants. We only have 4 right now.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Aug 1^st, 2003, 2:52pm

So were at a minimum of six owners with 9 players each plus a bench group of 6 or what?

Can we settle on some details here to flesh this out a little more

This will definitely improve everyone's knowledge of defensive players

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by bgsgfan on Aug 1^st, 2003, 5:22pm

I love this idea! I am stretched thin, but if you get five guys, I'll be the sixth. If you get six or more - I'll sign up for next year. Pretty much count on me being the whipping boy if I sign up - but I will do it to get this off the ground.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 11:21am

on 08/01/03 at 17:22:55, bgsgfan wrote:

I love this idea! �I am stretched thin, but if you get five guys, I'll be the sixth. �If you get six or more - I'll sign up for next year. �Pretty much count on me being the whipping boy if I sign up - but I will do it to get this off the ground.

Thanks alot bgsgfan!!!!!!!! I'm sure we can get 5 owners and then, with you being the sixth , its a good enough start for a new league!!! I'm going to hammer out the details of the league in the next post.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 11:30am

Every league should have a goal(s).
This league's goal will be to "educate interested Owners on players we hardly ever use".
The levels of emphasis with regards to our goal will be as such :

IDPs = (defensive players!!) Most emphasis!!!!!!!

RS = (return specialists) , players who usually return kick-offs (not to be mixed with Punt returners), hardly ever do much of anything else. But they could be fantasy sleepers in years to come, and/or already do contribute to their teams in a multi-facited role (ie: Antwan Randle El, etc).

P = (punters) , yes, they provide a vital role in field position. An inside the 20ydl punt is priceless. A high hang time that allows NO returns (ala fair catch) is frustrating for return teams. Much as you might sneer at this player, he is an important part of the game.

On the next message I will post the rules in regards to scoring, roster size, rules within the season, and so forth.

I might present some options for certain rules so that we can vote on them. Just remember, this is a new league and therefore WE are the ones that will build it from here!!!! Its our baby!!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 11:51am

OK here are the rules I decided on.
They are all up to vote and unanimous tallys gets the nod.
Even though I will be the commish on this league, I don't feel like I should be the "tell-all" since, this is a new league and I would like it to take the shape of all our membranes (members).
However, I have done ALOT of research regarding the IDPs and so, as differences in opinion arise, I will post my researched information & rationale and I urge you all to take it into consideration.

First , we need a league name. Since the "goal" of this league is to educate us on players hardly used arounsd the FF world, perhaps the "forgotten ones", if you will, I vote to call it "Amnesia".
Please, everyonepost a name you would like this new league to be called, and lets vote on it!!

Also, we need team names so, I am going with the Nostrailian SnotKnockers! Its a hard hitting defensive name! And its kind of funny too!

Lets hear everyone else's names!

Next post = rules

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 12:21pm

[quote author=KillerKingSting link=board=56;num=1059499147;start=0#22 date=08/02/03 at 11:51:09]OK here are the rules I decided on.
They are all up to vote and unanimous tallys gets the nod.
Even though I will be the commish on this league, I don't feel like I should be the "tell-all" since, this is a new league and I would like it to take the shape of all our membranes (members).
However, I have done ALOT of research regarding the IDPs and so, as differences in opinion arise, I will post my researched information & rationale and I urge you all to take it into consideration.

Draft order = serpentine , re-draft league. If we decide to ever make this a keeper league then, we can discuss that at that time. For now, I think a re-draft is best for a new league.
Anyone have any ideas on the order of picks? Perhaps a lottery or first come first serve type of deal? Please vote!

Rosters = 22 players. My thinking here is 2 players to choose from per starting line-up spots. Which are 9 IDPs, 1 RS, 1 Punter.

Can NOT have more than 26 players and no less than 18 players at any time during the season on your roster.

No restrictions on who you have on your rosters.

((Defense scoring)))
***Tackles
Solo Tackles = 1 pt.
Assts = 0.5 pts.
DLINE Solo tackles = 1.5 pts.
Pass defensed = 2 pts.
Sacks = 4 pts. (1/2 sack = 2).

***Big Plays
Forced Fumbles = 4 pts.
Fumble recoverys = 5 pts.
Interceptions = 6 pts.
Safetys = 8 pts.
TDs = 10 pts.
DLINE TDs = 12 pts.

***Yardage
Sack yardage = 1 pt. per 5 yards.
Turnover yardage = 1 pt per 10 yards. (includes int & fum returns or laterals on a defensive play).

***Special teams
Tackles = 2 pts.
Assts = 1 pt.
FF = 5 pts.
FR = 6 pts.
Blocks = 8 pts.
TD = 10 pts. (includes any type of STEAM TD.).

***Steam Yards
Punt Ret = 1 pt per 10 yards.
Kick Return = 1 pt per 20 yards.

***Punter
Inside 20 ydl = 4 pts.
Fair catch = 1 pt. (makes opponent's return man fair catch ball).
Touch Back = (-1) pt.
Blocked = (-3). pts.

***Offense stats
6 pts per TD.
1 pt per 10 yd rush/rec.
1 pt per 20 yds pass.

***Staring Line-Ups =

9 IDPs = 3-3-3 meaning 3 DL, 3 LB, & 3 DBs (with a MANDATORY CB as one of the DBs).

1 RS = must be a KICK returner (not Punt). He will also get all stats included in any other area of football he attributes to (ie : offense, Punt returns, defense, other Steam play).

1 Punter = see rules above.

All players are INDIVIDUAL and not positional draft picks.

***Flex line-ups.
May move ONE player from either position of your defense onto another position (ie : 2 DL, 3 LB, 4 DBs or 3 DL, 2 LB 4 DBs, or 3 DL, 4 LBs, 2 DBs etc etc.)

***Free Agency
I don't like the first come first serve format. I'm much too busy for that to be able to survive in any league. I also don't like the worst to first format. Rewarding owners who aren't doing their homework only contributes to the luck factor.

I suggest either a order that is OPPOSITE from the draft order.
Or, giving ourselves Fantasy Dollars (fake money) and using the blind Bid method where, each owner sends in a bid on each player during the seaon and highest bidder gets the player.
As always, add one, drop one.

***Post season, regular seasonal schedules***
Ok, here is where I will need alot of input. In all leagues I ever ran, we always playede the FULL regular NFL season (excluding the 17th week) and had our play-offs in the 16th week and the championship in the post seasonal NFL play-offs.

If you guys want to go with the "norm" on this, meaning we play only the regular season games, have our play-off and championship in the regular season then, thats fine with me. I just need some input.

If you all want to hear thge way I have always done it then, post me and I'll respond.

Trophy??, any ideas?? please post. Thanks, if by chance I have left anything out, then, let me know. I'm almost sure I have as I am typing right now, I just thought of another thing.

I have always done all my drafts via the phone. If you all want to do it another way, I'm game. Let me know.

Thanks!!! I'll get a sixth player from somewhere and then, we can go from there!!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 4:11pm

I will be away the next two weeks to visit my daughter in Connecticut, but I am in, I will spend a day at the Pats and Giants Training Camps and will now watch the defensive guys with a lot more interest.

League name I like Amnesia but I like Defamnesia even better, to emphasize forgotten defenders

I am fine with the rules, lottery draft etc. just not too many bonus things please, waivers are waivers so I would vote for no fake money, with only six owners I would not worry about anyone not doing their homework and relying on luck.

My team will be known as the Nova Scotia Spitfires

My time zone(Atlantic one hour ahead of Eastern) makes it difficult for drafts and I am already booked for Aug 30 and 31st

Hope to get lots of details when I return

Thanks for all your work :)

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Walker Boh on Aug 2^nd, 2003, 5:21pm

First of all, great job putting this all together. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

My team name will be the Offensive Defenders.

Here are my league name suggestions: The Other Side or Defenders of the Gridiron

I'm up for any style draft... how exactly does the telephone draft work? Are you talking conference call?

Not a big fan of the first come first serve or fake money idea....I think worst to first is the way to go.

I prefer the "traditional" regular season playoff, but I would also like to hear what you had in mind for the "playoff" playoff.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 3:25am

[quote author=Bob_Oswego link=board=56;num=1059499147;start=0#24 date=08/02/03 at 16:11:32]

I am fine with the rules, lottery draft etc. �just not too many bonus things please,

Hi Bob, I'm sorry but I am not sure what you mean by bonus points. In my main league that I have been playing in for 9 years now (though this is the first year we are doing IDPs as well) we use the same exact scoring system for IDPs as I posted on this message board.

However, we also have an added bonus chart for IDP scoring which includes : +3 extra pts for 8 solo tackles. +2 extra pts for a DL INT. +2 extra pts fopr a DB sack. +3 extra pts for IDP with 3 sacks in one game. +3 extra pts for IDP with 2 turnovers in one game.

I purposefully left this portion of the scoring rules out in this league because you mentioned you didn't want bonus points.

So I am at a loss to which bonus pts you are now referring to? Please help me out and we can discuss this. Thanks!!! Since he is going on vacation, if anyone else knows what he might be reffering to then, feel free to communicate. Thanks again!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 3:35am

I want to thank WalkerBoh & Bob for your comments on my hammering out the rules. It is really worth it to get nice compliments when you work on something.

Just to let you guys know, I am dedicated to making this a league that everybody will enjoy so, keep any suggestions coming!

Thanks again!

KillerKingSting's No Fear Bug-A-Neers!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 3:48am

Play-Off Format I have used in my main league which includes, going into the NFL POST season play-offs.

Well, with 6 teams, we all play each other 3 times till week 15.

Week 16, there is a play-off game between Team rank #2 & #3.

The winner of that game goes on to the NFL Post season in which Team rank #1 & winner of playoff game will re-draft for their starting line-up only!

The draft prder will be a serpentine order Taem #1 first choice, Team #2 2nd & 3rd choice, team #1 4th & 5th choice , Team #2 6th & 7th choice, Team #1 8th & 9th choice , etc...........

Once both sttarting line-ups are redrafted then, all players will accumulate points throughout ALL the NFL Post Season games which includes the superBowl but not the Pro-Bowl.

At the end of the superbowl (assuming either team has players left in their lineup by the time the S.Bowl comes around) then, TOTAL pts from your players will be tallied and Team with the most points wins.

For instance last season, if you chose KGB as one of your DL guys in the Post Seasonal Draft then, he would have only accumulated points in the NFC Wild-Card game since the Packers lost to the Falcons and didn't advance past that initial post season stage.

However, if you happened to draft Simeon Rice as one of your DL guys then, you would have gotten all his points tallied from the NFC Divisional, Championship & Super Bowl Games.

PART 2 the draft.
I have never done a draft online. Please xplain how we would do this. My drafting has always been done via phone. Not necessarily conference call though, I can have 2 people on at once (not sure how to get more than that, I could call the phone company an inquire though). But rather than conference, I re-call everybody when its their turn to pick and also update them on who has been taken.

Either way is fine with me, just need to know how to online draft.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Walker Boh on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 10:16am

An online draft is easy, just establish the order and start picking. You can check out how we did it for the CBFL by clicking the link below.
http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/cgi-bin/theGridiron/YaBB.cgi?board=54;action=display;num=1056942363;start=0
Your "playoff" playoff idea is pretty cool. We had a contest just like it here at the Gridiron this past season (of course, we used offensive players). If that's what the group decides, I'll do it, however, I think I still prefer to have it end in the regular season. Then perhaps we can have both an offensive and defensive playoff challenge that everyone here at the Gridiron can participate in. [smiley=shrug.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by bgsgfan on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 11:52am

Rules Comments:

1. Overall, I loke it!

2. I would like to see some points for tackles for loss (maybe along with yardage). This is often a missed area of defensive effectiveness.

2. Not so sure about Return Specialist getting offensive stats (or defensive ones for that matter). It would make someone like Randel El or a DB that starts and returns kicks a lot more valuable than a true specialist. Maybe a compromise would be to dilute the offensive scoring some more.

3. Also not sure about the point differential for Dline guys. In a lot of situations there is a blurring between the defensive end / Outside linebacker position and it opens up a can of worms. If Lee Suggs puts his hand down to rush the passer, and makes a tackle on a draw play - was it a Dline tackle? And vice/versa, if a DT drops into pass coverage and makes a tackle - was he a linebacker or a DLine? Even if you say it goes by the position a player plays most often, a situation like Peter Boulware 2 years ago will come up.

4. Punter scoring is rough, I like what you have already, but would be nice to see a little more. Hmmm, maybe some points for good net punts? 1 point for a 40 yard net punt, with an additional point for each 5 yards (that way a 60 yard net punt would give a punter 4 points)? Now, if a punter kicks the ball 63 yards for a touchback, he isn't penalized (43 net = 1 point, touchback =-1 point). Maybe you could give 2 points for inside the 20 yardline, 10 yardline 3 points, 5 yardline 4 points.

Also - this will be first year, don't make scoring too hard on YOU. Some of my ideas make it easier for you, some harder... if you have to choose between 2 options, choose the easier one.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 4:11pm

Overall, I agree with the rules. Great job thinking all this out. It will be interesting to see this in action. Here is my imput on a few things.....

0- League name--THE FORGOTTEN or DEFENDERS OF THE GRIDIRON.

1- Season should end week 17.

2- Where and how are we going to imput our starting line ups? Can we go to a free site and set this up? (I know the scoring would be incorrect.)

3- I am not really in favor of a punter, BUT, since you have thought of it and if you can incorporate a fair scoring system, then go for it. I do wonder if all the crappy teams punters will be taken.

4- Instead of individual special teams, why not TEAM special teams?

5- Roster size seems big. Since we start 11 players(w/punter) their are essentially 5 positions(DL, LB, CB, SP/T, Punter), I think we probably need a roster size of about 17 at most. This will encourage more players being added and dropped. This point is moot if you want to discourage that.

That is what all I can think of at the time since I am going on 3 hours sleep.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 10:16pm

on 08/03/03 at 10:16:23, Walker Boh wrote:

I think I still prefer to have it end in the regular season. Then perhaps we can have both an offensive and defensive playoff challenge that everyone here at the Gridiron can participate in. �[smiley=shrug.gif]

I like that idea Walker! And it sounds really kool about the possibility of the gridiron participating in an offensive player & defensive player NFL post season marathon, so to speak!, Sounds good to me, then, with 6 owners, 3 go to the play-offs, week 15 the play-off & week 16 the championship. Anyone opposed to this please post.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 10:42pm

on 08/03/03 at 11:52:19, bgsgfan wrote:

Rules Comments:

2. �I would like to see some points for tackles for loss (maybe along with yardage). �This is often a missed area of defensive effectiveness.

You and I think alot alike bgs, though, I will be using NFL.com for the defensive stats and any other stats for that fact. And they don't provide those types of defensive stats, In fact, I don't think any web site does at this time. Hopefully someday they will!!!

2. �Not so sure about Return Specialist getting offensive stats (or defensive ones for that matter). �It would make someone like Randel El or a DB that starts and returns kicks a lot more valuable than a true specialist. �Maybe a compromise would be to dilute the offensive scoring some more.

Actually, every true specialist also in some form or manner contributes to their team in different weeks. Take Brian Mitchell for instance. A true special team guy. Returns Kicks & Punts! But from time to time, you'll also see him get some offensive stats as well. Its like a RB who can also catch. Or a WR that can also Run. In other words, its not much but, every once in a while they provide a little something extra.
But I think we ought to just discard the specialist and Punter position this year for many reasons. One we all seem to have varied opinions on it and while that is something I want to encourage, at this point in time, neither position is the main emphasis of this league and so, with such little time to get things going coupled with my hectic schedule and the fact that it would help me out since I am doing all stats manually by myself, its better to just concentrate on IDPs this season and then next year, go from there! I hope thats ok with everyone!! It would help out alot! Thanks!

3. �Also not sure about the point differential for Dline guys. �In a lot of situations there is a blurring between the defensive end / Outside linebacker position and it opens up a can of worms. �If Lee Suggs puts his hand down to rush the passer, and makes a tackle on a draw play - was it a Dline tackle? �And vice/versa, if a DT drops into pass coverage and makes a tackle - was he a linebacker or a DLine? �Even if you say it goes by the position a player plays most often, a situation like Peter Boulware 2 years ago will come up.

Ok as far as "what" position a player actually will carry through in any particular game, I'm keeping this simple by saying , on NFL.COM, whatever their "player profile" says they are (and the player profile doesn't change throughout the year so, its a consistent position whether or not hes in a zone blitz covering a RB or what have you).......so, not to worry there.
Its along the same lines as if a RB goes and runs a route for a pass in a 5-wide situation, .......is he still a RB or is he now a WR since lining up wide? Well hes still a RB no matter where he lines up. I am to understand that some leagues won't reward other players for doing anything that is outside their scope of position but, I really don't want to get that detailed. I mean, I am a firm believer in FF is a "player preformance" type of game so, why shouldn't those players get recognition for wherever they contributed to in a game. Its like saying, well, that fumble recovery wasn't important because it was accomplished on special teams rather than on defense. We all know that a FR is important no matter where it happens. Ok, just my philosophy here and I'm typing and thinking really fast so, I hope I am still being respectful and hopefully also, articulate enough to explain where exactly my rationale lies.

4. �Punter scoring is rough, I like what you have already, but would be nice to see a little more. �Hmmm, maybe some points for good net punts? �1 point for a 40 yard net punt, with an additional point for each 5 yards (that way a 60 yard net punt would give a punter 4 points)? �Now, if a punter kicks the ball 63 yards for a touchback, he isn't penalized (43 net = 1 point, touchback =-1 point). �Maybe you could give 2 points for inside the 20 yardline, 10 yardline 3 points, 5 yardline 4 points. �

I LIKE and even LOVE these ideas for the punter!!!! Especially maybe points for net average!!!! I think thats important!!! But as I stated above, lets hash this out next season if everybody is ok with that. Thanks!!! very creative!

Also - this will be first year, don't make scoring too hard on YOU. �Some of my ideas make it easier for you, some harder... if you have to choose between 2 options, choose the easier one.

Your awesome for recognizing that! I absolutely am taking that into consideration. My other league we are a FULL preformance league (meaning that we give points for anything that happens on the field basically - on offense and on IDPs so, I also do it manually - am thinking of doing the CBS-Sportsline thing though to help out) and so, I don't want to over extend myself. So I am voting the Punter and RS out for this year. Hopefully everyone will have mercy [smiley=bow.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 10:46pm

;Dstill getting used to my posting, as you can see, its not perfected quite yet ;D :P though rest assured, I am working on it [smiley=bonghit.gif] [smiley=dunce.gif], thanks for the patience!! [smiley=bow.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 10:58pm

on 08/03/03 at 16:11:11, DirkDiggler wrote:

Overall, I agree with the rules. �Great job thinking all this out. �It will be interesting to see this in action. � Here is my imput on a few things.....

0- �League name--THE FORGOTTEN or DEFENDERS OF THE GRIDIRON.

1- �Season should end week 17. �

2- �Where and how are we going to imput our starting line ups? �Can we go to a free site and set this up? �(I know the scoring would be incorrect.)

How is it usually done? I have been in a family/friend league for years now and they all send their lineups in to me via email. We could just posy it on this messgae board if thats ok with StegRock? or I think he even mentioned the possibility of giving us our own message board. Or we could even get a hotmail account with every owner knowing the password and send them there, and that way everyone can also see other lineups posted. I'm up for ideas here. Great question, thanks for bringing it up.!!!!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 3^rd, 2003, 11:08pm

on 08/03/03 at 16:11:11, DirkDiggler wrote:

Overall, I agree with the rules. �Great job thinking all this out. �It will be interesting to see this in action. � Here is my imput on a few things.....

0- �League name--THE FORGOTTEN or DEFENDERS OF THE GRIDIRON.

5- Roster size seems big. �Since we start 11 players(w/punter) their are essentially 5 positions(DL, LB, CB, SP/T, Punter), I think we probably need a roster size of about 17 at most. �This will encourage more players being added and dropped. �This point is moot if you want to discourage that. �

First I LOVE the name Defenders of the Gridiron!!!! It tells what the league is about and also, is special to this web site! I'm in for that name if everyobne else is!

Second, with IDPs, there is sooooooooo much depth that, the bigger the size of your roster , the better. As I stated before in another post (I think I did?) there are only 6 offensive players on the field on any given play in the NFL that can score statistically for your FF squad as compared to 11 players for the defense that can rack up stat points (for offense, obviously the OLINE guys aren't given their due by the NFL posting blocks and sacks given up by particular players etc).

So with that in mind, I believe its better to have a larger roster to equal out the depth and still be able to be very competitive.

There still should be plenty of Free Agent moves as their will be players, just as on the offensive side of the ball, that will come out of the wood work from week to week and make plays.

So since I am voting off the RS & Punter for this season ( with willing member support I am hoping) then, with a 9-man starting lineup on "D", we should have 18 players via roster, no more than 22 and no less than 14 at any given time.

Sound ok?

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 4^th, 2003, 5:31am

Wow I'm up early, [smiley=smileytrash.gif], so anyway, heres another idea for the name of a league , how about = "Area51"!!!!!!!!! Well, maybe I should go back to bed [smiley=tired.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Aug 4^th, 2003, 3:43pm

on 08/03/03 at 22:58:30, KillerKingSting wrote:

As far as posting the line ups, I think the message board here would be great. Are you then going to post them to an excel spread sheet for the scoring? I personally just see a logistical nightmare for you.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by bgsgfan on Aug 6^th, 2003, 6:28am

No problem at all here with dropping P and RS.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 6^th, 2003, 7:06pm

:-/ well the fact is that we only still have 5 owners/teams so, this might not even be a nod this year. Until we get 6 then, I won't even move forward with anything else.
Might be better next season anyhow since that will give me time to work out all the glitches I am presented with at this point in which, I have no solution for right now. :-[

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by bgsgfan on Aug 8^th, 2003, 12:01am

[quote author=KillerKingSting link=board=56;num=1059499147;start=25#40 date=08/06/03 at 19:06:25] :-/ well the fact is that we only still have 5 owners/teams so, this might not even be a nod this year. Until we get 6 then, I won't even move forward with anything else.
Might be better next season anyhow since that will give me time to work out all the glitches I am presented with at this point in which, I have no solution for right now. :-[/quote]

Its rough drumming up interest in non-traditional FF leagues.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by DirkDiggler on Aug 8^th, 2003, 2:07pm

on 08/08/03 at 00:01:36, bgsgfan wrote:

Its rough drumming up interest in non-traditional FF leagues.

Yea...it is tough.

KKS....may I make a suggestion. Let's go ahead and experiment with the league this year. Maybe hold no draft, but a spreadsheet keeping track of 10 players at each position. They obviously all couldn't be superstars. But that way we see if the scoring is intra-postion and equitable between inter-postions. Not too much of a nightmare and we can adjust scoring accordingly so you have a gem at the end of the year.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 10^th, 2003, 2:41pm

Well, so, the league is a definite no go this season. I apologize to everyone who has participated up to this point. But I really do need another season to get this rolling and may even have 5 other owners besides ourselves next season (from my personal league).

As far as keeping the stats on players this season, I'm not sure how that would work. Right now I have to get my act together regarding the league I am commish with and figuring out a way to get my stats done for me otherwise as Dirk once mentioned, I am goin to be in stat boy hell [smiley=gonecrazy.gif]when due time comes-a-callin. [smiley=frustrated.gif].

What I may try to do is since the league I am in now is small (around 6 owners) then, I may try and fuse [smiley=sneaky.gif]that league with the one we have amongst ourselves IF everbody agrees. And actually, that is my goal [smiley=havinablast.gif].

However, it is a mixed Offensive & defensive player league with huge rosters (38 players) and total performance league stats on both offense & defense [smiley=proudAmerican.gif]. (defensive stats extremely similiar to the ones I presented here - actually identical excepting there are a few more twists added.)

If this sounds like fun orperhaps interesting then, we can go from there and post more about it. The great thing is though, we will have at least 8 - 10 team owners!

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by Bob_Oswego on Aug 14^th, 2003, 10:22am

Hey I am back and drenched from all the thundershowers. �Really disappointed to hear the IDP may not fly. really liked the idea and the name Defenders of the Gridiron was great

Pats Camp and Giants Camp was terrific...Patriots players were great with the kids including my son especially Joe Andrussi

Offence

Kevin Faulk RB, Daniel Graham TE, and Troy Brown WR were all top performers and extremely hard workers at practice, for the Giants, Tim Carter WR is very very fast and Shockey is a horse, also Collins looked sharp however the O line is slow

Defence

Patriots Lb Bruschi is tremendous as well as Poole and Colvert, I also like their secondary and rookie Klecko is a quick study

For the GMen Strahan is the man as well Barrow and young Mallard at LB worked tirelessly and Will Allen is a definite star in the making

Patriots have great chemistry and atmosphere at their camp

Any other news out there?

[smiley=coach.gif]

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by PrimeTime on Aug 22^nd, 2003, 9:27pm

If you guys want to try to do this, I'll be the 6th team. I can't draft until next Wednesday. (I need to finish up by four other leagues) I will warn you that I will not have time to really prepare, but I don't want to see this cool idea die.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Aug 25^th, 2003, 11:11am

I apologize to everyone that I haven't responded to this post until now.
The REAL problem is not exactly having 6 teams but rather, that I will have no time to do the scoring on this league as I originally thought I would.
Being a commish of another league that has 40 player rosters with 9 starting offensive players and 11 starting IDPs is really what is eating up any extra time I would have to devote to an independenmt IDP league.

However, as I said in another post that, my hopes are to merge anyone who is interested in platying with IDPs into the league that I just mentioned above.
At this time, we only have 6 teams but hope to expand (and I have great expansion rules) next season to 10 teams.

The scoring system for the IDPs in this league is far superior to the one I presented on this post just because they are a balanced mix between the "Plain Jane" (tackles) & "Big Play" (turnovers/sacks) options of IDP point value worth. Also to mention, as I cited, we use 11 players on defense - just like the NFL.

With that said, QBs (start 2) RBs (start 2), WRs (start 3 with 1 point receptions) and of course a TE & K along with the IDPs being worth about 45% of the total scoring makes this a VERY balanced and competitive league. In other words, drafting 2 great RBs and thinking your in the driving seat headed towards the play-offs won't cut it in this league. Almost every position is of importance.

Also, it is a KEEPER league with creative rules so, keep that in mind if anyone doesn't like keeper leagues.

If any of you all are interested in this then, please send me a message. I will send all the details. First and foremost, what might be helpful is that, I pay for a league manager to do our scoring - so this means it is totally FREE to all members! NO COMMISSIONER FEES! And we still get to use as many statistical catagories that we choose without burden to a score keeper.

Also, I will contact StegRock and see if I can work something out with him in regards to creating this league for this web site.

Once again, I apologize having to can the original idea but, I think things are going in a bigger and better direction that will also present a more competitive and more realistic game and especially for the hardcore owner who likes to manage a WHOLE team instead of just offense.
This game and scoring system will put IDPs into a new light like never seen before (although I am copying the rules from another source so, there are others out there using it - however, we'll put a bit of a twist into it)

10 owners is the most we can have since we start 2 QBs (more than that makes the QB position too scarce) and so, with myself and my friends = 6. We'll need 4 more.

With this in mind, since I am not going to manage 2 separate leagues this year, I will be available for anyone's leagues as an extra owner if need be.

Please don't be too dissappointed in this. The game is going towards bigger and better heights and will be alot of fun for those of you who enjoy both sides of the ball. It just took me alot of time to get everything rolling on such short notice and I basically have been swamped ever since.

Title: Re: Turning it over
Post by KillerKingSting on Sep 14^th, 2003, 12:59am

This is a note to keep everyone (who has interest) up to date on this league that will feature 11 IDPs & 9 OIPs next season. Its a 40-man-plus roster with creative keeper rules, and Free League manager access to probably the best L.Manager site out there.
Its a chance to play a WHOLE team and believe me, if you have yet to play with IDPs then, you don't know the absolute fun your missing out on.

As some of you know, Dolfan joined our league this season and is loving it so far. Hes a great addition and also great FF competitior and chat buddy to boot.
Here is what happened in week one with the guys!

KKS = 40.
RamaJama = 34.
(feast or famine goes the scoring of a DLine player and 2 of my 3 scored a combined 1 & 1/2 tackles. If it wasn't for Crumpler, I would have lost this game!)

Dr. Joe (Dolfan) = 58.
Shinkle Dinks = 15.
(Dr. JoeOscopy! comes into the league, never played with IDPs before, and smokes my brother by a large margin!!!! The Doctor Proctor had the BEST defensive showing of the week! Congrats!)

Duke Mustard = 88.
Dirty Tush Bush = 2.
(Duke smashed the Tush with 168 pints on offense alone! Though I hope he gets beat, Duke is pretty untolerable when he wins.)

Hope to see some of you guys next season competing with us!!!