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        the Gridiron >> between the 20's >>  16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!!!
        
(Message started by: KillerKingSting on Jun 28th, 2004, 11:24pm)
Title: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!!!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 28th, 2004, 11:24pm
In the Insane Gang we are discussing the differences between the 16th nfl week and the 17th nfl week in regards to is there THAT much of a difference in NFL players resting - coaches not playing them as hard - etc etc - in reference to : is the 17th week of the NFL and FF games JUST like the 16th week? And is the 17th week just like the first 16 weeks as in comparison to the 16th week being just like the first 16 weeks?

Please vote as such w/ differences :

MINOR = if you think this way please explain why.

MODERATE.

MAJOR.

Thanks for everyone's participation. Just trying to get a handle on a varied opinion on the Insane MemBrane.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by BarnabyWilde on Jun 29th, 2004, 1:00am
In the QFL (My main league) we use week 17 as the Superbowl. We all realize that some marquee players take that week off to rest, but is the chance we all take by drafting those players.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 29th, 2004, 2:00am

on 06/29/04 at 01:00:24, BarnabyWilde wrote:
In the QFL (My main league) we use week 17 as the Superbowl. We all realize that some marquee players take that week off to rest, but is the chance we all take by drafting those players.



Fair enough and thanks much for your post Jim.
What I am gathering here is that you DO recognize a difference between the 17th week in comparison to the 1st through 16th weeks.
But you are saying basically = tough luck if your marquee player is benched.

If I have this wrong, please feel free to set me straight, thanks!
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by BarnabyWilde on Jun 29th, 2004, 2:09am
That is basically what I am saying, yes. If you have Priest and the Chiefs are set in the playoffs and they rest him, well, you better have a good back up!



on 06/29/04 at 02:00:08, KillerKingSting wrote:
Fair enough and thanks much for your post Jim.
What I am gathering here is that you DO recognize a difference between the 17th week in comparison to the 1st through 16th weeks.
But you are saying basically = tough luck if your marquee player is benched.

If I have this wrong, please feel free to set me straight, thanks!
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Chumpzilla on Jun 29th, 2004, 5:27am
In a "majorty" of the leaugues I participate in our Super Bowl is in week 16.  We do recognize that coaches may rest players week #17 and prefer that both teams have their best fantasy team "fielded."
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Philly on Jun 29th, 2004, 9:11am
I too think that week 17 should be avoided.  Too many teams rest their best players (the best FF players) to avoid injury if they are heading to the play-offs or to give a younger player a look if they are not.  I don't think it's fair to the fantasy owner to expect them to take a hit.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Walker Boh on Jun 29th, 2004, 6:24pm
I think they should call it WEAK 17... [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 29th, 2004, 11:54pm
Well lil Dirky DooLittle, looks like the difference is a Moderate to Major one instead of the MINOR one you eluded to, lalalalalalalalalalalalalala  [smiley=shiteatingrin.gif]  


;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by StegRock on Jun 30th, 2004, 2:54am
My answer to your specific question, KKS, is "Minor".  As bad as having your key guys rest Week 17 (and in some cases 16) and having to play games is, having your players have a great week Week 17 and not even having the opportunity to have them count is WAY WORSE!  That said, I think a GBRFL system, where a bumper week is used in lieu of a traditional playoff week, makes playing Week 17 easier.  Having a traditional type playoff game, your Super Bowl, Week 17 is a bit more "trying".  Still though, I am with Jim and the QFL on that.  You know "the deal" beforehand; now deal with it!
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 30th, 2004, 3:31am
the vote now stands at 4 to 3.

4 = moderate to major difference.

3 = minor difference.

moderate to major still in the lead. ;D
I appreciate everyone's opinion & time taken to share their thoughts!.

By the way, the Insane Gang's "Chumpionship" isn't till the NFL playoffs and it is rotesserie style - 30 players each team - play from wildcard game to superbowl game unless the player's respective NFL team is eliminated during that run of games.

Its the Play-Off game between the 3rd & 4th ranked teams that will be played in the 17th week to decide which 1 of those 2 shall make it further into the NFL Post Season games (our chumpionship & the 1st & 2nd team get a bye).

So, the importance of the game itself isn't on the level of a league championship but nonetheless, still important.

My whole method of madness to this discussion is just this = to determine whether or not there is a difference from week 17 as compared to weeks 1 through 16.

#2 = is that difference (because there IS a difference) a minor, moderate or major one.

#3 = if indeed there is a minor or moderate or major difference then, there needs to be some type of compensation in regards to the higher ranked team otherwise - why even rank a team 3rd and 4th?

Within our rules of post season play - we give advantages for those who finish as "ranked" teams.
It would be silly and contradictory to our post season rules NOT to do so in another post season game - the week 17 play-off - that is my point.

Now the ongoing Insane Discussion on the HIVE Headquarters thread  leads to whether or not it is a minor -vs- moderate -vs- major advantage that will be given.

Even with the opinions on the Grid - which might be a bit biased towards it being a MINOR difference in relation to - as you said Steg - your league and I am assuming the GBRFL 2 league - puts emphasis on the week 17 game - -vs- if I were to post this same vote on another web site in which none of the leagues puts emphasis on the week 17 game then, I might come up with a bit of a biased opinion leaning towards a moderate to major difference rather than, the minor one.

Which at last is why I posted - I don't think I can get a MAJOR lean towards one way or the other, but I don't need to - we (Dirk & I) have agreed in part as to how we are going to handle it.

The opinions posted from here on out are just food for thought and entertainment. And I REALLY appreciate everyone helping us out. ;)

P.S. to Steg - i tried reaching you before you left for denver but to no avail - you had already gone and I had worked the previous2 nights - so I was a bit lost. Anyhow - great to see your safe and look forward to chatting w/ you when your back home.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by sexydexy on Jun 30th, 2004, 7:19am
I vote minor as discussed on the phone and in the Insane Gang forums.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 30th, 2004, 8:18am
Dex you made some great points in our discussion.
I look back on last year's results w/in our own ranks as to what the 17th week game unraveled to be and here were the results :

1st rank team = worst points output in 17th week = major difference.

2nd ranked team = best output in wk 17 = minor diff.

3rd ranked team = 2nd best out put in wk 17 = minor diff.

4th ranked team = 3rd best output = minor diff.

5th ranked team = 2nd to worst output = minor diff.

6th rank team = 4th best output = minor to moderate diff.

That was just one year folks. But all in all it seems like a minor diff.

Anyhow, vote is at 4 to 4.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by DirkDiggler on Jun 30th, 2004, 4:51pm

on 06/30/04 at 08:18:41, KillerKingSting wrote:
Dex you made some great points in our discussion.
I look back on last year's results w/in our own ranks as to what the 17th week game unraveled to be and here were the results :

1st rank team = worst points output in 17th week = major difference.

2nd ranked team = best output in wk 17 = minor diff.

3rd ranked team = 2nd best out put in wk 17 = minor diff.

4th ranked team = 3rd best output = minor diff.

5th ranked team = 2nd to worst output = minor diff.

6th rank team = 4th best output = minor to moderate diff.

That was just one year folks. But all in all it seems like a minor diff.

Anyhow, vote is at 4 to 4.


Week 17 is a moderate difference.  Your studs are not a sure play if they are on a playoff team.  
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by bgsgfan on Jun 30th, 2004, 9:18pm
MAJOR

The key is what effect that has on the particular league.  I disagree with week 17 being the week for a league championship game.  I have no problem including it if the effect is less than that, as is the case with both the GBRFL (&2) and the Insane League.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jun 30th, 2004, 10:50pm

on 06/30/04 at 21:18:45, bgsgfan wrote:
MAJOR

The key is what effect that has on the particular league.  I disagree with week 17 being the week for a league championship game.  I have no problem including it if the effect is less than that, as is the case with both the GBRFL (&2) and the Insane League.


great answer! Thanks Jeremy!
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by StegRock on Jul 1st, 2004, 1:11pm
I agree with bg 100%.  The next logical step for me at least would be that systems that are made to accomodate (i.e., as bg states, do not have a single league championship game) Week 17 play (and Week 16, 15, 14, etc., as some doofy leagues finish up as early as Week 15, 14 or EVEN, unbelievably, 13) have a "leg up" on leagues that don't.  95% of the (fantasy-impact) players are playing.  That 5% merits not having games!?!? [smiley=pullleeeeeeeze.gif] ... [smiley=nono.gif] Of course, if scheduling single-elimination playoffs and a single league championship game, it does.  So, as I have stated various other times in the past 'round here, I say out with the usual, "in the box" playoff systems period!!!

Alternatives:  1) just let the "regular season" standings be the determiner; 2) a "Bumper Week" system like is used in the GBRFL set-up (which would be a hybrid of a traditional playoff format and alternative #1); 3) something (another hybrid like alternative #2) I just thought of, [smiley=gotanidea.gif] but have never seen manifest, a final 2-, 3- or 4-week "Round Robin" playoffs/tournament, i.e. NOT single-elimination.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Callie on Jul 1st, 2004, 6:57pm
OK.  I probably have no business being in here, but I'm interested in the discussion.  I add that I did not read the Insane Gang thead on this, so I may have missed something.  But I do have a question.  Does the math take into account the fact that a team fighting for a playoff spot has to play their studs, while a team who has clinched can rest them?  That doesn't seem to flow from the team ranks system when you look at divisional situations.  May not seem to make sense in FF, but it's the crux of the choices the teams make.

Just askin'  :)

Modification:
That probably wasn't as clear as I meant it to be.  What I'm suggesting is that you could add in a factor for Divisional Standing and/or Conference Standing (better) going into week 17.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 2nd, 2004, 10:48pm

on 07/01/04 at 18:57:28, Callie wrote:
OK.  I probably have no business being in here, but I'm interested in the discussion.


Actually Callie, you have just as much right to post on this as anyone here does - IMO.
And in fact, even w/in the Insane Gang's much controversial threads & discussions - I open the door to anyone who would like to join in any of our conversations - it really makes things a whole lot more fun IMO & brings together a bunch of people who all have the same common interest in mind - that being fantasy football.



Quote:
I add that I did not read the Insane Gang thead on this, so I may have missed something.  But I do have a question.  Does the math take into account the fact that a team fighting for a playoff spot has to play their studs, while a team who has clinched can rest them?


If I am getting this right - let me say that the top 2 ranked teams in our league will get a BYE during week 17 - the 2 worst ranked teams will play in our version of a FF toilet bowl - called the Bitch Boy Bowl - or rather - the Bitch-Off - the 3rd & 4th ranked team will compete against another in a play-off game that will decide which ONE of those teams makes it into the NFL play-off games which is, our FF championship (total of 3 teams make it - top 2 and then, winner of the 3rd & 4th ranked team playofff game).

The rest of the teams do not play.


Quote:
That doesn't seem to flow from the team ranks system when you look at divisional situations.  May not seem to make sense in FF, but it's the crux of the choices the teams make.


As of now, we don't have divisions of conferences and I am not sure I believe in them for our league in reference to - IMO it just adds to the lady luck factor of things whereas , I believe the top teams should go into the post season regardless of a split division type set up for a league. But that is an entirely different topic in and of itself - one that I will also enjoy posting for an opinion.


Quote:
Just askin'  :)


I am thrilled that you did! Thanks so much for getting involved!


Quote:
Modification:
That probably wasn't as clear as I meant it to be.  What I'm suggesting is that you could add in a factor for Divisional Standing and/or Conference Standing (better) going into week 17.


Could you expand on this thought a bit more please?
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 2nd, 2004, 10:53pm

on 07/01/04 at 13:11:54, StegRock wrote:
I agree with bg 100%.  The next logical step for me at least would be that systems that are made to accomodate (i.e., as bg states, do not have a single league championship game) Week 17 play (and Week 16, 15, 14, etc., as some doofy leagues finish up as early as Week 15, 14 or EVEN, unbelievably, 13) have a "leg up" on leagues that don't.  95% of the (fantasy-impact) players are playing.  That 5% merits not having games!?!? [smiley=pullleeeeeeeze.gif] ... [smiley=nono.gif]


Steg I couldn't agree with you more on this. FF leagues need to get the most out of the NFL season - stopping in wks 13-14-15 etc is  a jip.
One of my main reasons for having our championship in the NFL post season so as to treat ALL of the NFL regular season games as OUR regular season games as well. (though, we treat wk 17 a bit differently as mentioned before).

Why be the champion of just 13 weeks of an NFL season - or 14 - or 15 - or 16?????

Seems to me that a FF owner who can win throughout the WHOLE season of the NFL and including it's post season - would feel much more rewarded for that as opposed to just a 14 game regular season schedule and a championship in the 16th week.

But their are decent arguments on both sides of that fence and I do think it's great to have variety w/in such a popular hobbie and common interest.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by bgsgfan on Jul 3rd, 2004, 2:00am

on 07/01/04 at 18:57:28, Callie wrote:
Modification:
That probably wasn't as clear as I meant it to be.  What I'm suggesting is that you could add in a factor for Divisional Standing and/or Conference Standing (better) going into week 17.


It took me a couple reads, but the way I understand this is to adjust fantasy points based on players' NFL teams' standings at the end of the season, thereby reducing the end of season effect being talked about.

I think that is interesting, but it would be very difficult to work out - if not impossible.  Which players are studs?  What do you do if (for example) Priest Holmes explodes in week 17 when the Chiefs have home field advantage wrapped up - would he still have his points adjusted up?  What about a mid-level player (ummmm, Travis Taylor for example) who gets rested?  Or a stud on a bad NFL team who sits out the last game for some bogus injury because he is disgruntled or whatever?


on 07/01/04 at 13:11:54, StegRock wrote:
3) something (another hybrid like alternative #2) I just thought of, [smiley=gotanidea.gif] but have never seen manifest, a final 2-, 3- or 4-week "Round Robin" playoffs/tournament, i.e. NOT single-elimination.


That would be cool to see!

Something like this:

First 14 weeks are the "regular season".
Top 4 teams make the "playoffs".
Week 15: A vs B, C vs D
Week 16: A vs C, B vs D
Week 17: A vs D, B vs C

Champion is the playoff team with best playoff record.


on 07/02/04 at 22:53:29, KillerKingSting wrote:
Seems to me that a FF owner who can win throughout the WHOLE season of the NFL and including it's post season - would feel much more rewarded for that as opposed to just a 14 game regular season schedule and a championship in the 16th week.


Another upside is that the ultimate champion would have displayed talent in not only assembling and managing his original team, but also doing it again for the playoffs - theoretically this should reduce the luck factor.

One downside is that you are going to war (thank you Mr. Winslow) with a completely new set of players.  It just seems a bit traitorous.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 3rd, 2004, 3:38am

on 07/03/04 at 02:00:16, bgsgfan wrote:
Something like this:

First 14 weeks are the "regular season".
Top 4 teams make the "playoffs".
Week 15: A vs B, C vs D
Week 16: A vs C, B vs D
Week 17: A vs D, B vs C

Champion is the playoff team with best playoff record.


This is a brilliant idea but still, leaves the NFL post Season out of the picture - hence if your going to play the 16th - or 17th week why not play it all - its still the NFL ;).

Regardless, I still like the idea for leagues that do not want to journey into the NFL Post Seasoning.



Quote:
Another upside is that the ultimate champion would have displayed talent in not only assembling and managing his original team, but also doing it again for the playoffs - theoretically this should reduce the luck factor.

One downside is that you are going to war (thank you Mr. Winslow) with a completely new set of players.  It just seems a bit traitorous.


Yes there are downsides and I suppose, thats one of them. But the upsides are many - players that you draft are playing not only against other top players in the NFL Post Season games but also they are playing in a physical & mental set of championship sudden death caliber - weeks 14-15-16-17 may or may NOT be the case for sudden death and most usually isn't the case for playing against other team's players at that post season level either.

The NFL post Season brings w/ - many surprises - as will a completely different draft in which you use your drafting powers/talents and Championship-type-mind-set to predict which will last throughout and which will pick up their game as a result. Its TRUE championship caliber football without a pseudo-like FF sudden death aura placed upon it.

I suppose if you were NOT playing in a keeper league it MIGHT make a bit more sense as to NOT re-draft though still, I believe at least a partial re-draft should take place regardless in a non-keeper or low % keeper league.

Otherwise, the bulk of your FF games which take place in the NFL regular season are downgraded seriously per - 4 teams make it to the championship - whether or not your #1 or #4 during the regular season would mean very little when getting to the Post NFL games as if you kept your players instead of re-drafting the #4 ranked regular season team has just as much chance to win it all as the #1 ranked team does - even though the #1 ranked team busted his/her butt and won a 16 or 17 game schedule - that would be all but meaningless for the 4 months of football you drafted and played for preceeding the Post Season games.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by sexydexy on Jul 3rd, 2004, 8:49am
I guess part of it is that some of us like to be homers and not fantasy players during the playoffs.  

This doesn't apply to a lot of us...me especially, being a Dolphin fan and all.  

But uhh..sometimes I like to lament and sulk or cheer my fantasy success during the postseason...maybe making some chili or havin a party during the playoffs.

Just not as concerned with fantasy football, I guess.
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 3rd, 2004, 9:24am

on 07/03/04 at 08:49:24, sexydexy wrote:
I guess part of it is that some of us like to be homers and not fantasy players during the playoffs.  

This doesn't apply to a lot of us...me especially, being a Dolphin fan and all.  

But uhh..sometimes I like to lament and sulk or cheer my fantasy success during the postseason...maybe making some chili or havin a party during the playoffs.

Just not as concerned with fantasy football, I guess.


I'm a bit confused. This does apply to you or doesn't? or just sometimes? or only when you like to make chili? Or only when (if [smiley=laugh.gif]) you have success during the regular season?

Can't say that I can relate to this. I have played my FF championship in the NFL post season for 8 of 9 years that I have been playing this game. The one year (last season) that I didn't, it just wasn't as interesting nor was I as enthusiastic about the championship.

Besides, I root for my team during the regular season as well as the post season despite my fantasy players.

Its not for everyone though ;)
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Callie on Jul 3rd, 2004, 11:15pm
Thanks for the welcome, KKS! :D  

Sorry I'm not around much in July, but I have vacation family things to do this month.  I love my family!

I've checked in on the thread when I could, and I have an idea about week 17, and maybe even both weeks 16 and 17, concerning studs being held back during regular season play to rest up for the playoff weeks when their teams have clinched.  This is if your league has starters and benchers.

What if you make a a situation for one week (or two weeks) where you allow one extra player from the bench as a Survivor League type of thing to be included in the mix?  For instance, if you have a normal situation where a team can have 2 RBs starting but other RBs on the bench, in those weeks ONLY an owner could designate an additional RB as a starter, but only the top two of the three are counted for the points scored for FF?  And the same goes for all other skill positions that matter for this type of thing.

Just a thought. ?.?.?
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 4th, 2004, 11:25pm
Callie thats an excellent idea and also, one that Dirk suggested as well. This was also talked about a bit ago when I posted ideas for FF "home" -vs- "away" advantages during the season.

The "extra" players that serve as best 2 of 3 or what have you is where the Insane Gang's 17th week playoff game is going to.

Thanks again for your post!
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by Callie on Jul 5th, 2004, 12:00am
Thanks for the positive waves!  Great minds think alike.  But you guys got there first.  [smiley=hellyeafunny.gif]

Still glad I'm in there somewhere. ;D
Title: Re: 16th NFL week versus the 17th NFL week : VOTE!
Post by KillerKingSting on Jul 5th, 2004, 12:55am

on 07/05/04 at 00:00:03, Callie wrote:
Thanks for the positive waves!  Great minds think alike.  But you guys got there first.  [smiley=hellyeafunny.gif]

Still glad I'm in there somewhere. ;D


Callie, I must admit, you certainly have some very beautiful and shiny white teeth. May I inspect your toothbrush please? [smiley=awwgee.gif]


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