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        the Gridiron >> between the 20's >>  Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
        
(Message started by: StegRock on Dec 28th, 2004, 2:34am)
Title: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Dec 28th, 2004, 2:34am
In the leagues run here @FantasyFootballer.com, we play through Week 17.  The CBFL schedule extends through Week 17 and in the GBRFL leagues we have our unique "Bumper Week" Week 17 (http://www.fantasyfootballer.com/gbrfl/schedule.htm#Week 17).  In the 90's there was an assault on late-season play, especially play during the last week of the season.  But, as many of the long-timers around here know, I am a firm proponent of playing through the whole of the regular season.  What I am curious to ask herein...

Do you guys have anything at stake Week 17 in your leagues?  If so, what is your league's rationale?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by KillerKingSting on Dec 28th, 2004, 9:37pm
The Insane MemBranes of Shame Gang plays a week 17 game however, we also include the WHOLE NFL season ; hence the NFL Post Season starting with the Wildcard playoff game and extending to the end of the SuperBowl.

Reasons for playing a week 17 game is because we encompass the whole NFL season that the 17th week is just as important as others.
However, we do give a 'home-field" advantage for teams that are ranked higher to make up for the presumable loss of starting talent that might be rested as NFL teams prepare for the post season.

But, even so, back up players are just as important as your starters and this is certainly ONE week in which THEY can make a considerable difference.

So, encompass the whole NFL season as well as your whole roster - is our philosophy in which we hold ciritcal to our goals as a league .................makes week 17 an important one to play out.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Jan 1st, 2005, 1:40pm
So, anybody else got leagues running through tomorrow?
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by Philly on Jan 1st, 2005, 10:13pm
My money league wrapped up in week 16.  Even then, the eventual champion had to go to the waiver wire to get a starting QB as his two -- McNabb (rested) and Palmer (injured) could not play.

Things would be even worse in week 17 with smallish rosters and so many fantasy starters riding pine for teams who have nothing to gain/lose this week.

Because of the format (15 player rosters with 9 starters) it does not make sense to extend the fantasy season to match the NFL regular (or playoff) season.  This would only serve to hurt those owners who drafted well and made good decisions all season only to be hurt by a situation out of their hands at the end.  It would negatively affect the integrity of the league.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Jan 2nd, 2005, 12:06am
Just out of curiosity, Phil... or anybody who doesn't (like)play(ing) Week 17, how do you feel when one of your players has a great game Week 17 all for naught?

Also, Phil to you specifically, how is that starting lineup of nine in your league comprised?
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by Philly on Jan 3rd, 2005, 8:54am

on 01/02/05 at 00:06:05, StegRock wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Phil... or anybody who doesn't (like)play(ing) Week 17, how do you feel when one of your players has a great game Week 17 all for naught?
Honestly, I never really gave it much thought. The season was over and there was no reason to think about it at that point. However, had the season continued into week 17, I would have been short a starting RB (Edge) and both of my TEs (Gates, Crumpler) which would not have made it an enjoyable week for me.


Quote:
Also, Phil to you specifically, how is that starting lineup of nine in your league comprised?
We start 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, 1 DST and have 6 bench spots which can be used however we want.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Jan 3rd, 2005, 2:23pm

on 01/03/05 at 08:54:06, Philly wrote:
Honestly, I never really gave it much thought. The season was over and there was no reason to think about it at that point.


I find this hard to believe.  Unless you just completely "tuned football out" (in both senses), it would be impossible to not at least notice your players' performances and if they were good, it would only be natural to feel at least just a little disgruntledness or injustice (to not have stats count that will in fact be in the stats books (for next season)).  But, if you say so...  [smiley=shrug.gif] The only reasonable conclusion...  I guess you never had good Week 17 players. ;)

...

As intimated above, those Week 17 numbers still do end up being an implicit part of the game.  When evaluating players the following year, making deals, preparing for your draft, etc., you value guys according to their stats for the whole season.  Jamal Lewis's 167 yards and touchdown yesterday go a long way to increasing his value next year, especially considering the time he lost this year.  Ultimately, I guess there are two sides to the coin.  But, it is worth the critical fantasy footballer to ask himself...  Is it a greater FF sin to NOT count stats that DO exist for the sake of those that do NOT, or to count the stats that DO exist despite those that do NOT?  I would definitely say that the former is the greater "sin".  With the latter, as per the age-old football mantra, "Nothing is left on the field!"  With the former, A LOT is.  However, you can't just go about implementing this philosophy willynilly, i.e., you can't just go changing a 15- or 16-week schedule, let's say, to a 17-week schedule without thinking it through (just as you can't go about making any "fundamental" changes to a league without making the according necessary adjustments to accomodate the change).  One way to largely get around this is cascading lineups like in the GBRFL.


Quote:
However, had the season continued into week 17, I would have been short a starting RB (Edge) and both of my TEs (Gates, Crumpler) which would not have made it an enjoyable week for me.


Well, :-/ you actually don't know that to be a fact, not absolutely.  You don't know what kind of moves you would have made to fill in for those guys.  Maybe earler on, before your trading deadline, you'd have seen the writing on the wall here and made a trade for Tony Gonzalez, whose Week 17 performance was awesome.  Or, perhaps you'd have picked up Patrick Hape, Jeb Putzier or Zack Crockett, just to name a few likely free-agents that come to mind (and, actually, your small rosters would make picking up these kinds of guys easier), and really enjoyed your day and the coming to fruition of your insight.  Or, maybe you'd have just won despite the situation you state.  You don't know.  I always felt that to not play Week 17 or in some leagues Weeks 16, 15 and even 14 because of fear of what might not be or is not amounted to limiting the potential fun had just by participating merely for the sake of a defensive posture.  Or, maybe, then again, it's just about the... GOLD (Okay, I couldn't resist the Overstock.com play there). :D But, really, maybe, it's just the difference in seeing the cup here as half full instead of half empty.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by sexydexy on Jan 3rd, 2005, 3:41pm
From what I was watching yesterday, there were very few games where the games actually meant something.

So, the Pittsburghs, Atlantas, Philadelphias, San Diegos, andIndianapolises of the world took some of their starters out of the game and pretty much gave the other teams more of a chance than they regularly would have had.

If you ask those coaches, they wouldn't have told you outright that week 17 wasn't as important but they sure showed you that it wasn't important after seeing some of the performances.

Overall, week 16 is *probably* worth playing in fantasy land.  Most teams still have something to play for.  Week 17 though is a different story.  With the resting for playoffs and sitting players with nagging injuries on the teams not going to the playoffs (ala Clinton Portis), it seems that Week 17 is mostly a garbage week.

If I were in a fantasy league, I'd probably like it to go like HAFA...week 15 is the championship.

Sure, it doesn't go into the last weeks but then again, you still played 15 weeks of the season to determine your champion.  That seems to be enough in the NFL to determine the kings of the regular season.

Also, if you want to encompass playoffs in your league, try playing a playoff lineup pool or something.  Using the playoffs for a championship is r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by junkyardjake on Jan 3rd, 2005, 3:59pm
I think the issue of counting week 17 for fantasy purposes really comes down to parity amoung NFL teams.  Certainly with the advent of a more restrictive salary cap, the relative competitiveness amoung teams has been impressive for the past few years. For example, it is nearly impossible for an NFL team to go on a reckless spending spree and sign every attractive free agent that happens to become available (i.e. the NY Yankees).

Then in 2004, we had the Eagles, Steelers, Patriots and Colts muck everything up.   In the case of the Eagles, I think the Owens addition put them over the top as nobody could figure out how to stop the McNabb/Owens scoring machine.  Terrell was really the missing piece of the puzzle for that team, who already had a superstar QB, great coaching, and a solid defense.  In terms of the Steelers, Patriots and Colts, it was mostly great coaching, although the free agent signing of Corey Dillon helped to make the Patriots more formidable and Peyton Manning's utilmate maturation into an elite QB helped the Colts become a dominant force.

So was 2004 an aberration ?  If not then week 17 for fantasy purposes becomes a questionable proposition.  It makes little sense to have fantasy teams with star players become significantly undermined in week 17, just because they happen to feature players from an NFL team that has locked up home-field advantage throughout the playoffs in week 15.

Now on the opposite side of this argument, if a particular league that chooses to use week 17 for it's championship week has been set up with this a priori understanding, then it becomes intrinsic to the challenge.  For example, when drafting in such leagues, players like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb might be appropriately valued in accordance to their possible depreciation in the playoff weeks.

In the money league I've been playing for the past few years week 17 has never been a consideration.  For example, trades and waiver wire pickups are terminated in week 13.   This makes late week adjustments for star players almost impossible if they are unexpectedly benched.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by Philly on Jan 3rd, 2005, 5:06pm

on 01/03/05 at 14:23:25, StegRock wrote:
I find this hard to believe.  Unless you just completely "tuned football out" (in both senses), it would be impossible to not at least notice your players' performances and if they were good, it would only be natural to feel at least just a little disgruntledness or injustice (to not have stats count that will in fact be in the stats books (for next season)).  But, if you say so...  [smiley=shrug.gif] The only reasonable conclusion...  I guess you never had good Week 17 players. ;)
I guess I didn't have any players that did anything so extraordinary in week 17 to make me take notice.  I know none of the players on my roster in week 16 this year did anything remarkable yesterday.


Quote:
Well, :-/ you actually don't know that to be a fact, not absolutely.  You don't know what kind of moves you would have made to fill in for those guys.  Maybe earler on, before your trading deadline, you'd have seen the writing on the wall here and made a trade for Tony Gonzalez, whose Week 17 performance was awesome.  Or, perhaps you'd have picked up Patrick Hape, Jeb Putzier or Zack Crockett, just to name a few likely free-agents that come to mind (and, actually, your small rosters would make picking up these kinds of guys easier), and really enjoyed your day and the coming to fruition of your insight.  Or, maybe you'd have just won despite the situation you state.  You don't know.  I always felt that to not play Week 17 or in some leagues Weeks 16, 15 and even 14 because of fear of what might not be or is not amounted to limiting the potential fun had just by participating merely for the sake of a defensive posture.  Or, maybe, then again, it's just about the... GOLD (Okay, I couldn't resist the Overstock.com play there). :D But, really, maybe, it's just the difference in seeing the cup here as half full instead of half empty.
I guess I could have run out and dumped Antonio Gates for a Jeb Putzier, but it kind of cheapens the whole effect of the season.  I drafted Gates because I thought he'd have a good season and he won some games for me.  Now, when it really counts in week 17 I should put my money on a Jeb Putzier or a Chris Cooley?  It just seems artificial to me.  If we're going to count week 17 stats (and probably play a FF championship game that weekend) then why not include pre-season stats too?  They're just as reliable in many cases.

As far as planning ahead, back in week 11 or 12 (when the trading deadline occurred) there was no way to predict that Edgerrin James would sit in week 17.  Hell, some people started him yesterday thinking he'd get more than one carry.
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Jan 3rd, 2005, 5:30pm
I will say this much...  Having playoffs and a Super Bowl during Weeks 16 and 17 would be dumb.  Running out a regular season with, perhaps, a concluding Bumper Week Week 17, like in the GBRFL format, is the way to go if you want to squeeze the NFL regular-season turnip dry.  Also, like JYJ pointed out, 2004 was rather unique.  Last year, most studs on playoff-bound teams still played (because things were not as clear).

Personally, I just could NOT imagine watching Week 17 games being played and NOT being a part of it and having the numbers count.  It's not Antonio Gates or Jeb Putzier who is winning the GBRFL championship.  It's me, the fantasy footballer.  Going down to the wire just makes you have to strategize again in another way.

ULTIMATELY, though, I say do whatever makes you happy.  My only point is that I just think that playing through Week 17 is an extra enjoyment many fantasy footballers deprive themselves of without thinking it through and really considering the alternative of doing so (and how to go about it intelligently). [smiley=shrug.gif] I, for one, LOVE having it ALL count (not just because I won it this year; I've been on the other side of the coin as well, but in the long-run it all evens out).
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by StegRock on Jan 3rd, 2005, 6:23pm
And, sexydexy, as I asked Philly, I must ask you as well...  So what about ALL the numbers being generated Week 17 (and Week 16) that don't count?  How do you "respond" to them?  How do you substantively rationalize throwing them out?

How about this way of thinking...?  It's not like the NFL is nullifying Denver's win over Indy because Indy had nothing to play for and fielded a "JV" lineup and is letting Jacksonville enter the playoffs instead of Denver because Jacksonville had to play a more "legit" game against an Oakland team that fielded their regular starters.  All the games count.  Jacksonville could whine, but that's how the cookie crumbled.  It could have crumbled in a different way.  Bottom line, they don't start not counting the games.  So, why should we?  If they count in the books, which is the most important place for them to count especially for us stats-based players, why should we not count them?
Title: Re: Fantasy Leagues & Week 17
Post by sexydexy on Jan 3rd, 2005, 8:37pm
The numbers surely count.  But for what?

Not a whole hell of a lot.  

Go ask Andy Reid how much week 17's game meant to him and his team.  Or Tony Dungy.  Or Bill Cowher.

If those games meant as much as other games, then ALL the NFL teams would treat it as such.  However, this is just not the case.  

And if you had a roster that was really good most of the season, you'd have to REALLY shake it up to field a good lineup.  

It's not totally impossible to play in week 17...but everyone will be hitting the waiver wire like cheap Jamaican skunk.  ;-)

So what does it REALLY mean?


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