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Philosopher King
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #4 on: Sep 24th, 2007, 9:07pm » |
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I don't know if you can call anything Vick- -related  "in-season" or, for that matter, "Falcons-related",... but for now this seems like the right place to post this... The latest on Vick's "trials"  and tribulations,... and the news isn't good... MORE indictments to come... according to "The REAL Feed":
RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -Surry County Prosecutor Gerald Poindexter says he will seek indictments in a dogfighting case at property owned by Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick.
SI.com: NFL (24.09.2007 20:28)
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Red Zone Master
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #7 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 12:12pm » |
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Absolutely right.
Race is a highly volatile issue, even today. Many perceive a race component to this issue; however, without precedent, there's really no way to support that argument. It basically comes down to whether you put any value on an animal's life. In my opinion, the Vick supporters do not. Otherwise, how could you defend him?
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3 straight underperforming seasons, one nitwit head coach, 2 problem child WRs, 1 collosal trade bungle....but a wild boat party with booze and hookers!!!????? Priceless.
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Philosopher King
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #8 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 3:29pm » |
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I honestly feel that those comments oversimplify the issue. But, this is not a hill I want to die on, so... Suffice it to say that he MUST pay for the crime he has committed, but the punishment should fit the crime. And, the cultural dynamics at play here can't just be dismissed. But, those cultural dynamics aside, which my little Korean wife, e.g., ain't even hearing, thinks that the level of punishment they are going after for Vick is egregious, both in legal and societal terms. She contends that their trying to make an example of him will backfire. She means this in the sense that punishing someone too much breeds resentment as opposed to genuine contrition. On the level of the society at large, it is going to foster further resentment in his sympathizers and righteous indignation in his opposers (which I DEFINITELY have observed). Going light is no better either, mind you. Going light breeds hubris instead of genuine contrition. In the society at large, it fosters further hubris and indignation in supporters and resentment in opposers. The punishment has to be just right. She feels that as a society and via the legal system he should serve around six months (she even said, perhaps, three, but I don't think that's enuogh) and he should not have his career effectively TOTALLY taken away from him. Eighteen months and a career lost would be indicative of a mean-spirited society wrought with righteous indignation ("even if" it is PETA  acting as our moral guide  ).
(Well,... couldn't just keep it short...  Although, that wasnt' that bad for the old Stegger.  )
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Red Zone Master
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #9 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 7:09pm » |
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had he stepped up the minute the feds served the 1st search warrant on his Virginia property, and stated "I did this, it was wrong, I'm sorry...", I'd agree with the 3 months.
but he lied to authorities, lied again to Branch/Falcons, lied again to the public, lied again to Goddell....only when he was backed entirely into a corner with no chance of getting out, did he decide...ok.....yeah I helped kill dogs.
IMO, you cant try as hard as possible to wiggle off the hook, then get off as light as possible when you finally get nailed.
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3 straight underperforming seasons, one nitwit head coach, 2 problem child WRs, 1 collosal trade bungle....but a wild boat party with booze and hookers!!!????? Priceless.
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UFF Primetime Prophet
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #11 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 8:38pm » |
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on Sep 26th, 2007, 12:12pm, captainpurple wrote:Absolutely right.
Race is a highly volatile issue, even today. Many perceive a race component to this issue; however, without precedent, there's really no way to support that argument. It basically comes down to whether you put any value on an animal's life. In my opinion, the Vick supporters do not. Otherwise, how could you defend him? |
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This isn't a racial issue. This is a criminal issue. To say that Michael Vick is being treated unfairly because of his skin color is ludicrous. He's being treated the way he is because of his criminal actions.
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #12 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 8:45pm » |
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on Sep 26th, 2007, 3:29pm, StegRock wrote:I honestly feel that those comments oversimplify the issue. But, this is not a hill I want to die on, so... Suffice it to say that he MUST pay for the crime he has committed, but the punishment should fit the crime. And, the cultural dynamics at play here can't just be dismissed. But, those cultural dynamics aside, which my little Korean wife, e.g., ain't even hearing, thinks that the level of punishment they are going after for Vick is egregious, both in legal and societal terms. She contends that their trying to make an example of him will backfire. She means this in the sense that punishing someone too much breeds resentment as opposed to genuine contrition. On the level of the society at large, it is going to foster further resentment in his sympathizers and righteous indignation in his opposers (which I DEFINITELY have observed). Going light is no better either, mind you. Going light breeds hubris instead of genuine contrition. In the society at large, it fosters further hubris and indignation in supporters and resentment in opposers. The punishment has to be just right. She feels that as a society and via the legal system he should serve around six months (she even said, perhaps, three, but I don't think that's enuogh) and he should not have his career effectively TOTALLY taken away from him. Eighteen months and a career lost would be indicative of a mean-spirited society wrought with righteous indignation ("even if" it is PETA acting as our moral guide ).
(Well,... couldn't just keep it short... Although, that wasnt' that bad for the old Stegger. ) |
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How do we determine that cruel treatment and slaughter of animals is worth a 3, 6, or 18 month sentence? I don't think that Vick needs to be made an example of, however I don't have a problem if that is the case. He committed the crimes, and then lied about his involvement in the crimes. He deserves whatever punishment is meted out for him. But I know if I was involved in the same activities, got caught and lied about it, and then had to recant and confess, I would lose my job and have no chance of regaining my former position in my field. After serving time in jail, and with a criminal record, I would likely be going from the world of academia to the world of manual labor (where many ex-cons end up). If the NFL was to determine that they didn't want to employ Michael Vick again, why would that be so egregious?
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Philosopher King
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #13 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 9:03pm » |
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I hear ya, cp. But, I always get a laugh when everybody acts all shocked and high-and-mighty when they hear about a guy who covered up, i.e. lied, for years about an affair he was having. I mean... that's (part and parcel of) the definition of an affair. What's a guy, who's been (suspending all judgment... men are men and I don't like playing the judgment game in that area, at least before kids are involved) playin' around, gonna do when the old lady's suspicious? "Oh, yea, honey... It was me... I've been cheating... I've even prepped the divorce papers, though. Sawrreeee..." The fact that he had an affair is the "wrong" part. The fact that he lied about it... kind of just follows. Circumstances here are analogous, and, of course, this is all worsened when you have lawyers, who are trying to push the envelope and string it out until the last possible moment, advising you. I mean you're asking him to incriminate himself before any proceedings. Heck, we as Americans are NOT EVEN asked to do that in court!!! In fact, most are advised NOT TO. ... Three months if he admitted to (what?) everything (or, how much would have been enough for him to admit to?), but string him since he didn't. That don't seem...  ... 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2007, 2:19am by Stegfucius » |
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #14 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 12:14am » |
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Lots can be said here. Without taking away from the fact that Vick did something wrong (and lied about it, as I think most people would/do do in such circumstances -- good point, Steg) let's look at it this way: Leonard Little got drunk at a party, got behind the wheel of a car, and killed an innocent person. Little got three months in jail, community service, and probation. Vick fights dogs and (allegedly) kills them, or at least watches as they're killed. He stands to get . . . what, 12-18 months in jail? Riddle me that. Is human life really less valuable to us? It would seem so. (I think this is evidenced in the legalization of abortion, but that opens another can of worms.)
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Philosopher King
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #15 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 7:10am » |
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on Sep 27th, 2007, 12:14am, T-Rave wrote:| (I think this is evidenced in the legalization of abortion, but that opens another can of worms.) |
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Actually, (great minds think alike and) this is a perfect segue to where I wanted to go with this...
So, here we go again with sk and his slide-show m.o.  You pull that same move when you pitch your take on the environment and global warming too. Pull out some horrific photos (that tendentiously "illustrate" the side you're on) for shock value more than anything, mind you, and there you have it, right?
BUT, I digress... Let me ask you, sk... You MUST be VERY ANTI-abortion, no? Check out the scratch-n-sniff on that... W W!!! You are, right??? If NOT,... ENOUGH with the "a pictiori" (I knew you'd like that one, Rave) arguments. 
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Red Zone Master
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #16 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 9:09am » |
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on Sep 27th, 2007, 12:14am, T-Rave wrote:| Leonard Little got drunk at a party, got behind the wheel of a car, and killed an innocent person. Little got three months in jail, community service, and probation. Vick fights dogs and (allegedly) kills them, or at least watches as they're killed. He stands to get . . . what, 12-18 months in jail? Riddle me that. Is human life really less valuable to us? It would seem so. (I think this is evidenced in the legalization of abortion, but that opens another can of worms.) |
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the problem with this argument is that it ignores intent. Little didn't intend to kill someone, and being a (I believe) first time DUI offender, he was only charged with involuntary manslaughter....SOMETHING HE PLEAD GUILTY TO! no lawyers, no Cochran, no NAACP, no Sharpton, no Jackson, no Rainbow Coalition....he took his punishment.... which, BTW, also included a half season unpaid suspension!
Vick's case is the entirely opposite of the spectrum. Yes, it was dogs, but there was intent, there were multiple, multiple instances of the crime, and he did NOT stand up and apologize or admit guilt until forced to.
I don't even let me 4 year old get away with finally telling me the truth after I've proven to him I know he's lying. He gets punished for lying in the first place!
Little got off light, in part, because he admitted to it immediately, and because it was accidental. Neither of these elements exist in the Vick case.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2007, 9:09am by captainpurple » |
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3 straight underperforming seasons, one nitwit head coach, 2 problem child WRs, 1 collosal trade bungle....but a wild boat party with booze and hookers!!!????? Priceless.
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Red Zone Master
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #17 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 9:20am » |
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on Sep 26th, 2007, 9:03pm, StegRock wrote:| I hear ya, cp. But, I always get a laugh when everybody acts all shocked and high-and-mighty when they hear about a guy who covered up, i.e. lied, for years about an affair he was having. I mean... that's (part and parcel of) the definition of an affair. What's a guy, who's been (suspending all judgment... men are men and I don't like playing the judgment game in that area, at least before kids are involved) playin' around, gonna do when the old lady's suspicious? "Oh, yea, honey... It was me... I've been cheating... I've even prepped the divorce papers, though. Sawrreeee..." The fact that he had an affair is the "wrong" part. The fact that he lied about it... kind of just follows. Circumstances here are analogous, and, of course, this is all worsened when you have lawyers, who are trying to push the envelope and string it out until the last possible moment, advising you. I mean you're asking him to incriminate himself before any proceedings. Heck, we as Americans are NOT EVEN asked to do that in court!!! In fact, most are advised NOT TO. ... Three months if he admitted to (what?) everything (or, how much would have been enough for him to admit to?), but string him since he didn't. That don't seem... ... |
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This is sad commentary on where our criminal justice system has taken us. I find it extremely disheartening that anyone would consider "lie until your caught" a de facto component of justice. The 5th Amendment protects us from being forced to do/say anything that would incriminate ourselves. It does NOT say we SHOULD lie and lie and lie and lie......and then explain. If he wanted to implement the 5th amendment, hey...cool! That's his right! But for us to broaden the 5th amendment to accept his lying as expected behavior as if to save himself...that's just further eroding an already maligned sense of morality and virtue in our society.
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3 straight underperforming seasons, one nitwit head coach, 2 problem child WRs, 1 collosal trade bungle....but a wild boat party with booze and hookers!!!????? Priceless.
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Red Zone Master
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #19 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 11:54am » |
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I think Harrington redeemed himself a bit last week. If he can put up a nice showing against Houston this week, he'll keep the job. If he reverts to taking sacks and throwing INTs, we could see Lefty sooner.
the schedule certainly doesn't help Harrington. Houston and Tennessee are pretty decent defenses. So harrington's #s could be down. NYG and NO follow that, so if he can make it to those games, he may just keep the job all year.
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3 straight underperforming seasons, one nitwit head coach, 2 problem child WRs, 1 collosal trade bungle....but a wild boat party with booze and hookers!!!????? Priceless.
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #20 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 1:10pm » |
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on Sep 26th, 2007, 9:03pm, StegRock wrote:| ...I always get a laugh when everybody acts all shocked and high-and-mighty when they hear about a guy who covered up, i.e. lied, for years about an affair he was having. I mean... that's (part and parcel of) the definition of an affair. What's a guy, who's been (suspending all judgment... men are men and I don't like playing the judgment game in that area, at least before kids are involved) playin' around, gonna do when the old lady's suspicious? "Oh, yea, honey... It was me... I've been cheating... I've even prepped the divorce papers, though. Sawrreeee..." The fact that he had an affair is the "wrong" part. The fact that he lied about it... kind of just follows. Circumstances here are analogous, and, of course, this is all worsened when you have lawyers, who are trying to push the envelope and string it out until the last possible moment, advising you. I mean you're asking him to incriminate himself before any proceedings. Heck, we as Americans are NOT EVEN asked to do that in court!!! In fact, most are advised NOT TO. ... Three months if he admitted to (what?) everything (or, how much would have been enough for him to admit to?), but string him since he didn't. That don't seem... ... |
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Interesting argument, but irrelevant. Having an affair, while certainly wrong and indicative of poor judgment, is not illegal. Fighting dogs is illegal. (And to pull an argument from another thread... Vick knew it was illegal and did it anyway. If he didn't know it was illegal, then why wasn't he more in the open about it--he didn't advertise the dogs on his website as fighting dogs. He didn't stage dogfights as halftime entertainment for Falcons' games--they were held at a secluded facility in Virginia.)
I hope that Roger Goodell takes steps to keep people like Michael Vick, Pacman Jones, Chris Henry, etc. out of the league altogether.
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Philosopher King
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #21 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 5:04pm » |
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on Sep 27th, 2007, 1:10pm, Philly wrote:| Interesting argument, but irrelevant. |
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If you only knew how much this pains me... on SO MANY levels,... ... 
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #22 on: Sep 27th, 2007, 8:11pm » |
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I don't even believe I'm going to weigh in on this, but...
First off dog fighting and cock fighting are activities that are illegal and in my opinion disgusting, mean spirited, and just morally wrong.
They are also a geniune part of our historically legitimate past and historically illigitament present. You would not have to go all the way to Louisiana to find animal fights...it's in Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri...on and on.
I don't agree with it, but the animals are bred to fight, that's what they do, it is their purpose in life, their job. Putting to death a badly hurt animal in the eyes of those involved in this industry is actually thought of as an act of kindness. Putting the animal out of its misery so to speak. In their eyes, the bigger crime would be to allow the animal to continue to exist in a painful and permanently injured state of being. I don't have to agree with that and you don't have to agree with that, but that is the reality of the thinking of that sub-culture.
Vick in many ways is the victim of a culture that he can not escape. I don't excuse a person from raping and murdering my sister, but if they were exposed to a life time of rape and murder, it would be unrealistic to think that at some point they may become involved in that kind of behavior.
If restitution and rehabilitation is your goal, then go heavy on restitution $$$$$$$$ and rehabilitation.
If you want to be punitive, just electrocute the guy...completely destroying his ability to earn a living and contribute to society, could be considered worse than the crime. Punish, yes, but with the concept of moving the guilty toward a desired positive outcome for society.
I know, I must be a  for wanting to show a little mercy.
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Re: Falcons In-season Report
« Reply #23 on: Sep 28th, 2007, 7:12am » |
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Quote:Vick in many ways is the victim of a culture that he can not escape. I don't excuse a person from raping and murdering my sister, but if they were exposed to a life time of rape and murder, it would be unrealistic to think that at some point they may become involved in that kind of behavior.
If restitution and rehabilitation is your goal, then go heavy on restitution $$$$$$$$ and rehabilitation.
If you want to be punitive, just electrocute the guy...completely destroying his ability to earn a living and contribute to society, could be considered worse than the crime. Punish, yes, but with the concept of moving the guilty toward a desired positive outcome for society.
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I agree with a lot of what you said here. But someone has to choose. The dog fighting industry is waiting for an outcome here. This is big money gambling. If you are soft on Vick (couple of months, probation, Com service then back to work) Then its like telling this industry that its ok. Its not a president that should be set. All this is Moot though. Vick is doing a great job of setting president himself. Busted for pot, Busted for Dog Fighting/Killing, busted for pot again.
Quote:I don't agree with it, but the animals are bred to fight, that's what they do, it is their purpose in life, their job. Putting to death a badly hurt animal in the eyes of those involved in this industry is actually thought of as an act of kindness. Putting the animal out of its misery so to speak. In their eyes, the bigger crime would be to allow the animal to continue to exist in a painful and permanently injured state of being. I don't have to agree with that and you don't have to agree with that, but that is the reality of the thinking of that sub-culture.
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Disagree here. If that were true then the same could be said about gladiators. Romans only feed the losers to the Lions to be merciful.
The merciful killings of the dogs were most of the reason Vick entered a guilty plea. Imagine Vicks public image after its read in court that the probable (I say probable because its the way its done with a lot of losing dogs.) killings involve hanging the dog by its back legs so that just the top half of the dog would be in a large tub of water. The dog would then paddle for its life while people stood around gambling on the lenth of time the dog would survive.
I know this because my son wrote a paper and speech for school on this topic. If you would like I could get you sources for your own pictures. Ironically he wrote this paper before Vicks involvement became public. This is a huge industry where president needs set.
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